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From the APD end violence section. I swear to fucking god @ Element_ got so fucking mad at me because I was USING MY FIRST WEAPON, MY VOICE, AT A GOD DAMN FED BECAUSE I WASN"T SHOT AT YET SO HE WAS LIKE OH PSEUDONYM YOU CAN"T GO TO THE FUCKING FED WITHOUT A GUN THATS THE KINDA STUFF THAT GETS YOU BLACKLISTED. AND GUESS WHAT? NOW THAT XMISTHERS IS THE CHIEF< THE SAME PIECE OF HTE FUCKKKKKIIIIINNGNGG HANDBOOK, ELEMENT NOW USES TO SAY "OHHH NO YOUR FIRST WEPAON IS UR VOICE OF COURSE YOURE SUPPOSED TO GO IN WITHOUT A GUN" WELL WOOPTY FUCKING HOO ELEMENT. CARE TO TELL ME WHO OUT OF THE APD OFFICERS ACTUALLY TOOK THAT SERIOUSLY? AND THEN WAS TOLD BY MULTIPLE SERGEANTS AND LIUETENANTS THAT I WASN"T ABLE TO NOT CARRY A GUN ANYMORE? CARE TO TELL ME WHO ELEMENT? ARE YOU GONNA APOLOGOIZE? BECAUSE I DON"T NEED AN APOLOGY, BUT YOUR SORRY ASS SURE DOES CUZ I DON"T KNOW HOW YOU CAN LIVE WITH SUCH A GUILTY MIND. I wish you well and hope you become the person you want to be. You have no spine. You live only to serve those who rank higher than you

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the fact that ppl don't know how to see the list of every staff and then just... idk... @ them themselves? is quite insane. They have to rely on a 4 year old copy paste

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I think that will encourage the olympus cycle of abuse, personally. Like if you rob cops and try to hold them for 14 minutes and 59 seconds or whatever, then that will be a force making the APD more hateful of civs, while xsmitherz seems to be trying to make them more liking of civs I think another thing that higher ups could do is just start applying more soft pressure to the lower enlisted. Stuff like rhetorically (as in rhetoric) asking a corp "why did you seize that guys frit?", as just a genuine question. If they say something like "cuz it's illegal?" you can ask something like "so? did he do anything extra malicious? you don't just have to seize it because you can". I remember one of my favorite interactions as APD was with @ Jakey The Snakey when he was at weed pro, I was raiding it, negotiated to just talk it out with him, then said i'll leave him alone for now if he surrenders 20% of the weed he gathered, and that I'll try to fight him if I see him near drug dealer. I could have just killed him, or died and then kept coming back, but instead it turned into a fun RP experience. So I think just asking questions for the purpose of rhetoric to other APD officers to see why they chose a harsher punishment, would be good. And it might softly move them to being more lenient/having fun with civs.

@ xsmitherz plz read this i put a medium amount of work into it Ok so, let me go over some axioms real quick: 1. APD officers regularly do use/abuse their powers to spite others / "because i can" 2. APD officers have the discretion to be more lenient than what the handbook allows them to do 3. Players are off put by the abuse of APD power, and this perpetuates the positive feedback loop in the olympus cycle of abuse (E.g: someone screwed you over once, so now you screw everyone else over) So, this rule ideally would never have to be added, and it is the kind of thing that if we change the culture of the APD enough to be generally more lenient, and have nicer, better officers who don't just want to robo search robo seize everything, we wouldn't need this. They would ideally be willing to self correct and use the appropriate, proportionate amount of response, even if they are allowed to use more. So they would just already be as lenient as these handbook changes are forcing them to be, because they care about players, not just because they are trying not to get punished. But, this is not an ideal world. For the moment, we might need to force APD officers to chill out with how strict they are to civilians, until they are able to chill out themselves, and figure out when it's ACTUALLY appropriate to seize someones shit. We should be cautious that as we are forcing APD officers to be more chill by making the handbook stricter on them, that we are also encouraging them to WANT to be more chill, not just that they are being forced to. If you squeeze their ability to do stuff on one end, it might burst out at another end, like some different part of the handbook, where they will start being extra mean to civs. You need to make it so they don't want to be extra mean to civs to begin with, or it will be a never ending battle of trying to solve handbook loopholes/exploits and continuously making it more and more strict on the APD Technicalities: - "Box Trucks and smaller" what does "smaller" mean? This would probably be better phrased as "Vehicles with the same or lower base storage than the box truck". If we look at the wiki, the van weighs 5,000 kg, so I'd argue that's pretty obviously "larger" than the 2,509 kg of the box truck, but I'd imagine this rule is trying to make it so vans don't also get searched. Also, what about a mohawk? it's the same virtual storage as a boxtruck, but it's a lot more expensive/powerful. Is it supposed to be similarly protected? - "Vehicles owned by new players may not be seized [...] Exception: If a new player has one or more LEO Manslaughter" So if a new player starts ifrit dropping on cops and tazing them, their frit can't be seized? Strict adherence to this rule could easily cause APD officers to build even worse blood with civilians, causing them to try to abuse their powers in any other ways they can. - "Firearms may only be seized if the suspect has one or more LEO Manslaughter charges or a bounty exceeding $300,000." Think about how unfair that could feel to another new player, who only has a p07, gets rekt by a full rebel kit, and when the police arrest that guy he gets to keep all his gear cuz he's new and didn't kill a cop. ALSO SECOND SCENARIO: someone tazing cops is using a firearm that isn't a LEO manslaughter charge TL;DR: It sucks that this has to be a handbook change to begin with, we need to change the culture of the APD so that we don't need more handbook changes like this in the future, but it might be a required change for right now. Just ensure that this doesn't foster further hatred between the APD and Civs or else this could cause unintended side effects.

I'd think people change over time, and they should have a chance for an unban, but also that a previous cheater is highly likely of cheating again, even if it's years later. sort of like a relapse in a way. paying for unban is kinda whack, and sort of ruins the good will normal players have with the server. My anger is mostly at the handbook and faction leaders, which is more like a PvP attitude, rather than anger towards the server, which would be some kind of player vs admin kind of attitude (i used to dislike the server more, but then I realized how awesome @ David Miller and pretty much gave up that crusade). attacking a faction is fine gameplay/community wise, but attacking the entire structure that the game is played in destabilizes everything (E.g: cheating). The only thing I consider kind of P2W is the extra loadouts oly+ gets, and even then it's minor enough and you could just manually buy those things faster if you clicked fast enough. But if they started paying for unbans, then more of my anger would be towards the server its self. I like the server so I report bugs I find, if I thought they were actually evil i'd have no problems abusing powerful bugs i've found even more. right now I only abuse bugs for comedic effect

I mean, I read his response and all I've gots to say is: if I was perm banned, I'd probably start ban evading to. This isn't a promise, but it might be a threat. I am one day going to ban evade, whether that's on olympus, or CS, who knows, but it will happen.