The State of Federal Events, As Seen From a Jr. APD Member

[Milo 935]

Honestly I really like the takes in this post all the way around. The truth is there is busted stuff with both factions, and @ thomp62  addresses it perfectly. So I am not rambling, here is a list of items that I generally endorse:

1. Giving lower ranks an easier and more guaranteed opportunity for lethals and slightly better weapons during federal events. Before I recieved my Staff Sgt rank a few months ago, I played as a PO and had to deal with all the nuisances that came with it. The largest nuisance was that it felt like I was entirely useless up until the 10 minute mark where then lethals could potentially be authorized. Giving lower ranks a more reasonable opportunity to perform would generally increase the entire quality of life and perception of federal events by Jr. APD.
2.  Limitations to armor under certain circumstances. Having played civ and done feds myself, getting an entire wave of hunters or striders within the first four minutes of the event starting is brutal and not really fair at all. Although I'd like to think that Sr. APD discretion is generally good, there are some that generally see a "proportionate response" as whatever it takes to win. I think a 1:2 ratio of armor versus civs is a generally fair proposal. The only thing I would personally like to see further to endorse this is perhaps is some written exceptions.
   1. The usage of RPGs and other generally effective armor penetrating blackwater gear at federal events has become significantly more common. In the cases where a certain amount of vehicles are lost, I think it should be warranted that the limit is able to be exceeded.
   2. OR (likely an unpopular take) the usage of Ifrits are evaluated for cops. As it stands right now, hunters are not very effective at all at withstanding even the basic MK1. Providing the APD the ability to pull Ifrits under written exceptions would provide a reasonable response to federal events where players are effectively utilizing really OP blackwater gear that generally makes it unwinnable for the APD.
   3. Ultimantely the entire goal is to prevent civs from being absolutely cancered by an entire wave or armored vehicles the moment the event starts, but also provide equal opportunity for APD to be able to use them appropriately when necessary situations provide.
3. @ Noble 's post about runs. I generally have never like how federal event-centric roundtable ideas have generally been in recent years. I think that consistently ever waging war for each faction to keep them fair generally hurts the entire purpose of roundtable. The majoirty of players do not have an interest or active participation in federal events. Roundtable ideas should be about requesting ideas for content and rules that make the game fun for everyone, not just those that tend to run these events.
   1. Ultimantely they are a very end-game activity and the consistent war back and fourth on them I feel like causes a lot of really cool ideas that would otherwise benefit the representation of everyone to be neglected. One of the coolest things added to Olympus in recent times was the phones, not an increase in gold bars.
   2. That being said, I think there should be limits to how often federal events are permitted to be discussed in roundtables. The consistent need for both factions to have to put up their dukes for those events prevent a healthy flow of ideas that represent the general non-fed running or waving community. Having a limit would allow for more meaningful evaluation of those ideas before they are put up before faction leads, of which are then passed up before senior staff. 

[Orbit 295]

1 minute ago, thomp62 said:

Even if my proposed solutions are not viable, I’m hoping that this post will spark debate and more community ideas for how to make feds fairer for all sides.

They are always being discussed from the high ranks in the APD, through the leads of CC, and through staff and devs daily.

[Noble 1830]

6 minutes ago, SPBojo said:

I mean, proportionality has been a issue for ages, even back 3 months ago there was rampant federal events being done and yet no suggested changes from sAPD.

 

Would love to have shown peope what 2018 feds looked like with 15 hunters pushing 2nd wave. Good times!

[SPBojo 6863]

1 minute ago, Orbit said:

Whoever the sAPD member was that said this I'm curious about.

More than 1 senior.

1 minute ago, Orbit said:

The less gear you use, the less explosives used, and the less cancer strats abused, all relate to the force responded with, If you had no gear and it was possible to slam without 150 round belts slammed into hatchbacks with zafs then there would be hardly any reason to pull armor to run around and do crazy shit.

That's what we used to do, you seem to forget there was a time without RPG's and so on. APD started armor slamming against regular kits and we have to up what we brought, they then upped what they brought and we had to yet again up what we brought. We are not at a point where there isnt much more we can bring outside of AT / HMG Vehicles which quite frankly are more of a liability than anything.

3 minutes ago, Orbit said:

The response is all based on the skill, gear, and numbers. I cannont speak for those calling the shots because thats not me.

7 People without a medic had mass armor waves used against them by 2x more cops than civs, lethals was authorized wave 3. If your telling me APD are so scared they have to do such against 7 people where quite frankly only 2 of them had "non shaky hands" i think a revision within the entire APD has to be done and a full rework of ranks / people in ranks.

[ben- 537]

6 minutes ago, Orbit said:

Whoever the sAPD member was that said this I'm curious about. The less gear you use, the less explosives used, and the less cancer strats abused, all relate to the force responded with, If you had no gear and it was possible to slam without 150 round belts slammed into hatchbacks with zafs then there would be hardly any reason to pull armor to run around and do crazy shit. Armor would then be used halfway through to attempt a defuse like its always been used for. The response is all based on the skill, gear, and numbers. I cannont speak for those calling the shots because thats not me.

Not much I can do as a JAPD member, if they let me sit in and propose, then they would have to let everyone.

But heres the issue, how can we prove this? I am not going to name names and start drama on a forum thread but here we go, just yesterday we lost I think 5 of us in a first lethal wave and yet they still authorised lethals for the next wave and mass pulled armour. I think there needs to be more than just a forum thread made about this issue, I go out my way to spend millions every loadout and so does everyone else because of this shit happening and we cant physically fight double or numbers with just mk1s.

When sAPD members see no issue with response numbers nothing is going to happen no matter how long this thread goes on for. 

It also doesn't help that lethal authorisation is being based on "skill level" (their own words) by certain sAPD members before even attempting to make a few useful pushes

[Orbit 295]

2 minutes ago, SPBojo said:

More than 1 senior.

 

Interesting.

2 minutes ago, SPBojo said:

That's what we used to do, you seem to forget there was a time without RPG's and so on. APD started armor slamming against regular kits and we have to up what we brought, they then upped what they brought and we had to yet again up what we brought. We are not at a point where there isnt much more we can bring outside of AT / HMG Vehicles which quite frankly are more of a liability than anything.

Again the skill gap is large, hunters are not tough, and the JAPD hardly knows what to do without a brained player screaming down the mic, you guys had no issue with the amount of armor used at feds months ago.. Until BWs (the hardest event) turned into loses.

3 minutes ago, SPBojo said:

7 People without a medic had mass armor waves used against them by 2x more cops than civs, lethals was authorized wave 3. If your telling me APD are so scared they have to do such against 7 people where quite frankly only 2 of them had "non shaky hands" i think a revision within the entire APD has to be done and a full rework of ranks / people in ranks.

I was not there but this is a valid point, I would take pictures of channels, videos of waves, and explain it all in a IA. 

4 minutes ago, ben- said:

But heres the issue, how can we prove this? I am not going to name names and start drama on a forum thread but here we go, just yesterday we lost I think 5 of us in a first lethal wave and yet they still authorised lethals for the next wave and mass pulled armour. I think there needs to be more than just a forum thread made about this issue, I go out my way to spend millions every loadout and so does everyone else because of this shit happening and we cant physically fight double or numbers with just mk1s.

Was this due to poor positioning and over extending? If this is the BW Im thinking of you all were way out of the inner amount. You also had a solid 14 players and a medic. If the treatment towards the events is overwhelming then simply submit an IA. I can assure you with rexo stepping in and the understanding of both sides change will be made. It may have to be made at the expense of someones rank and thats what happens sometimes.

5 minutes ago, ben- said:

When sAPD members see no issue with response numbers nothing is going to happen no matter how long this thread goes on for. 

Some seniors see an issue and play very on the back side and others see the civ side and the win rate as valid cause to perform the way they do.

7 minutes ago, ben- said:

It also doesn't help that lethal authorisation is being based on "skill level" (their own words) by certain sAPD members before even attempting to make a few useful pushes

The gang aegis has grown a name for the skill behind the players. You cannont sit here and argue as if you guys are new to events. 

[SPBojo 6863]

2 minutes ago, Milo said:

• Giving lower ranks an easier and more guaranteed opportunity for lethals and slightly better weapons during federal events. Before I recieved my Staff Sgt rank a few months ago, I played as a PO and had to deal with all the nuisances that came with it. The largest nuisance was that it felt like I was entirely useless up until the 10 minute mark where then lethals could potentially be authorized. Giving lower ranks a more reasonable opportunity to perform would generally increase the entire quality of life and perception of federal events by Jr. APD.

Lethals can be authed by seniors, blame inactive seniors not lack of tools.

3 minutes ago, Milo said:

Limitations to armor under certain circumstances. Having played civ and done feds myself, getting an entire wave of hunters or striders within the first four minutes of the event starting is brutal and not really fair at all. Although I'd like to think that Sr. APD discretion is generally good, there are some that generally see a "proportionate response" as whatever it takes to win. I think a 1:2 ratio of armor versus civs is a generally fair proposal. The only thing I would personally like to see further to endorse this is perhaps is some written exceptions.

srAPD discretion is and i quote "Its our job to ensure civilians cannot win these events"

3 minutes ago, Milo said:

 The usage of RPGs and other generally effective armor penetrating blackwater gear at federal events has become significantly more common. In the cases where a certain amount of vehicles are lost, I think it should be warranted that the limit is able to be exceeded. Or (this is going to be a very unpopular take), the usage of Ifrits are evaluated for cops. As it stands right now, hunters are not very effective at all at withstanding even the basic MK1. Providing the APD the ability to pull Ifrits under written exceptions would provide a reasonable response to federal events where players are effectively utilizing really OP blackwater gear.

Its common to bring RPG's due to how much armor sAPD brings which forces civilians to use anything and everything they have. Ifrits will never happen. as for "players are effectively utilizing really op blackwater gear" a CMR can 1 shot people wearing the BEST and MOST armor value gear there is on the server.

5 minutes ago, Milo said:

• 1. Ultimantely the entire goal is to prevent civs from being absolutely cancered by an entire wave or armored vehicles the moment the event starts, but also provide equal opportunity for APD to be able to use them appropriately when necessary situations provide.

within the sAPD its either "give up at minute 1" or "armor slam from minute 1". Really poor mentalities amongst a lot of the seniors.

6 minutes ago, Milo said:

Noble's post about runs. I generally have never like how federal event-centric roundtable ideas have generally been in recent years. I think that consistently ever waging war for each faction to keep them fair generally hurts the entire purpose of roundtable. The majoirty of players do not have an interest or active participation in federal events. Roundtable ideas should be about requesting ideas for content and rules that make the game fun for everyone, not just those that tend to run these events.

Runs dont provide the same "pvp enviorment" that federal events do, there will always be players that prefer federal events, like shit, most people doing the BW dont win anything but show up because its fun to JUST fight.

7 minutes ago, Milo said:

Ultimantely they are a very end-game activity and the consistent war back and fourth on them I feel like causes a lot of really cool ideas that would otherwise benefit the representation of everyone to be neglected. One of the coolest things added to Olympus in recent times was the phones, not an increase in gold bars.

That's why we have a civilian COUNCIL and not just x amount of ideas from x group. Each section is permitted 2 ideas per roundtable and there are always things being brought up. As for phones, basically dead besides calling people to see where they are / shit talk

8 minutes ago, Milo said:

1. 1. That being said, I think there should be limits to how often federal events are permitted to be discussed in roundtables. The consistent need for both factions to have to put up their dukes for those events prevent a healthy flow of ideas that represent the general non-fed running or waving community. Having a limit would allow for more meaningful evaluation of those ideas before they are put up before faction leads, of which are then passed up before senior staff. 

There is a whole section of the civilian council dedicated to federal events. 2 of the ideas per roundtable are usually federal event related, if you feel 2 out of 10 ideas every round table is too much i honestly do not know what to tell you. Besides, federal events is a big part of Olympus for some players, same goes with vigi'ing, i know WAY MORE people that dislike vigi's than federal events, should we just censor vigis and reduce their "influence" on changes to their "things they do" just because some people dont like it? I genuinely dont understand or support this take in any way shape or form.

10 minutes ago, Noble said:

Would love to have shown peope what 2018 feds looked like with 15 hunters pushing 2nd wave. Good times!

PTSD to the extreme.

[ben- 537]

8 minutes ago, Orbit said:

Was this due to poor positioning and over extending? If this is the BW Im thinking of you all were way out of the inner amount. You also had a solid 14 players and a medic. If the treatment towards the events is overwhelming then simply submit an IA. I can assure you with rexo stepping in and the understanding of both sides change will be made. It may have to be made at the expense of someones rank and thats what happens sometimes.

There was one BW yesterday which we trolled which is the one you are thinking of, this is a separate occasion. Trust me we have made IAs already against sAPD members and they get responded to in minutes with no action taken. 

9 minutes ago, Orbit said:

The gang aegis has grown a name for the skill behind the players. You cannont sit here and argue as if you guys are new to events. 

Except this is the issue, how is it our fault we are being punished because we can shoot a few cops out of a hatchback who drive in a straight line. Sure after a few waves if nothing is happening auth lethals but not on the third wave because sAPD ego is hurt that they are losing

[SPBojo 6863]

8 minutes ago, Orbit said:

Again the skill gap is large, hunters are not tough, and the JAPD hardly knows what to do without a brained player screaming down the mic, you guys had no issue with the amount of armor used at feds months ago.. Until BWs (the hardest event) turned into loses.

Skill gap is indeed large at times but that should not mean that "oh yeah, lets ignore proportionality" should be a "valid strat" simply due to the lack of APD internal trainings / ability to strategize.  

9 minutes ago, Orbit said:

I was not there but this is a valid point, I would take pictures of channels, videos of waves, and explain it all in a IA. 

Already done mate and every single time that ^ is the response with nothing changing ^-^

 

[Orbit 295]

3 minutes ago, ben- said:

Except this is the issue, how is it our fault we are being punished because we can shoot a few cops out of a hatchback who drive in a straight line. Sure after a few waves if nothing is happening auth lethals but not on the third wave because sAPD ego is hurt that they are losing

If the APD know that no progress will be made its the seniors call. At the end of the day its all delt with on the back end and with the sAPD. IA's would be the only way to fix this because the rules are wrote in favor of situations.

1 minute ago, SPBojo said:

Skill gap is indeed large at times but that should not mean that "oh yeah, lets ignore proportionality" should be a "valid strat" simply due to the lack of APD internal trainings / ability to strategize.  

If the APD had to sit and run through fed and explain every situation to new cops, it would be a waste of time, players would decline being a cop, and how effective is it really when the strats change constantly.

[ben- 537]

Just now, Orbit said:

If the APD know that no progress will be made its the seniors call. At the end of the day its all delt with on the back end and with the sAPD. IA's would be the only way to fix this because the rules are wrote in favor of situations.

This is true, but again going back to the thing about 3rd wave authorisation after we lost 5 civs instantly. Is that no progress? Believe me we IAd that already and nothing happened

[SPBojo 6863]

11 minutes ago, Orbit said:

I can assure you with rexo stepping in and the understanding of both sides change will be made. It may have to be made at the expense of someones rank and thats what happens sometimes.

I'm not going to leak anything or say something im not permitted to say but Rexo found it okay that there was 3+ Hawks and 2+ planes already at the BW when the bomb blew all guns hot THE SECOND someone were to jump into the air vehicle that spawned. I wouldn't get my hopes up in regards to changes in that department.

[Orbit 295]

2 minutes ago, SPBojo said:

Already done mate and every single time that ^ is the response with nothing changing ^-^

Thats a issue within the sAPD and I have nothing to say in regards to it. 

Just now, ben- said:

This is true, but again going back to the thing about 3rd wave authorisation after we lost 5 civs instantly. Is that no progress? Believe me we IAd that already and nothing happened

Again, what was your numbers, I can almost guarantee you had a medic, and the epis came quick. 

[SPBojo 6863]

2 minutes ago, Orbit said:

If the APD had to sit and run through fed and explain every situation to new cops, it would be a waste of time, players would decline being a cop, and how effective is it really when the strats change constantly.

I mean, tbf, currently most deputies dont even know LIST so fuck knows what they teach them these days

[Orbit 295]

1 minute ago, SPBojo said:

I'm not going to leak anything or say something im not permitted to say but Rexo found it okay that there was 3+ Hawks and 2+ planes already at the BW when the bomb blew all guns hot THE SECOND someone were to jump into the air vehicle that spawned. I wouldn't get my hopes up in regards to changes in that department.

Again that's here nor there, I play the faction to enjoy it, I also would like to see change, and unfortunately sometimes there is nothing us lower fuckers can do. They've sat in higher chairs then me for a long long time. Not to mention I had to rebuild my reputation from the ground up.

1 minute ago, SPBojo said:

I mean, tbf, currently most deputies dont even know LIST so fuck knows what they teach them these days

Again, its in internal issue, If I had say trust me! It'd be different. I can only go as far as they let my words travel.

[JDC 302]

I appreciate this post and the discussion it is trying to bring, however I don't think the civilians care to understand or are ready to have an honest conversation about the state of federal events and proportionate response. 

The reason the APD mass armor pulls and gives Jr. APD lethals is because of the CIVILIANS gear set and the situation at hand.

The civilians run:

Zafir/MAR10/MK200/MK1/RPG

Armor stack

And pull RPGs when the APD pull armor.

Before the APD pull armor and authorize lethals for Jr. APD , the average APD gear set vs the Zafir/MAR10/MK200/MK1/RPG and armor stack is not even close to fair.

The mass armor pull and authorizing lethals for Jr. APD is to even the playing field.

And quite frankly the same civilians that complain about proportionate response are the same ones who do the SAME thing when they play cop (mass armor pull, authorize Jr. lethals) .

 

[Orbit 295]

22 minutes ago, Noble said:

Would love to have shown peope what 2018 feds looked like with 15 hunters pushing 2nd wave. Good times!

2018 to 2020 was pure rape. 

[monster 5665]

4 minutes ago, JDC said:

The reason the APD mass armor pulls and gives Jr. APD lethals is because of the CIVILIANS gear set and the situation at hand.

The civilians run:

Zafir/MAR10/MK200/MK1/RPG

Armor stack

And pull RPGs when the APD pull armor.

The reason the civilians use that gear is because they Mass armor and auth lethals regardless of the situation or gear, it is the civs adapting to the cops not the otherway around.

[Orbit 295]

Just now, monster said:

The reason the civilians use that gear is because they Mass armor and auth lethals regardless of the situation or gear, it is the civs adapting to the cops not the otherway around.

If you don't bring the gear then you could have argued in an IA

[ZimZim 258]

5 minutes ago, JDC said:

I appreciate this post and the discussion it is trying to bring, however I don't think the civilians care to understand or are ready to have an honest conversation about the state of federal events and proportionate response. 

The reason the APD mass armor pulls and gives Jr. APD lethals is because of the CIVILIANS gear set and the situation at hand.

The civilians run:

Zafir/MAR10/MK200/MK1/RPG

Armor stack

And pull RPGs when the APD pull armor.

Before the APD pull armor and authorize lethals for Jr. APD , the average APD gear set vs the Zafir/MAR10/MK200/MK1/RPG and armor stack is not even close to fair.

The mass armor pull and authorizing lethals for Jr. APD is to even the playing field.

And quite frankly the same civilians that complain about proportionate response are the same ones who do the SAME thing when they play cop (mass armor pull, authorize Jr. lethals) .

 

Gear will always be favored in civs side because we actually risk it. Cops don't risk anything gear related and can come back in 3 minutes after dying. If gear was even across the board... it actually wouldn't be fair AT ALL to the civs because of how many lives cops get vs civs. 

[SPBojo 6863]

2 minutes ago, JDC said:

I appreciate this post and the discussion it is trying to bring, however I don't think the civilians care to understand or are ready to have an honest conversation about the state of federal events and proportionate response. 

The civilians doing these federal events have been open to discussions and been trying to accomplish as much since the founding of the civilian council.

3 minutes ago, JDC said:

The reason the APD mass armor pulls and gives Jr. APD lethals is because of the CIVILIANS gear set and the situation at hand.

Wild to me how the same problems happened when all civilians had was MK1's and T3's but sure, lets ignore the fact that this has been a issue since before RPG's were even on the server.

4 minutes ago, JDC said:

The mass armor pull and authorizing lethals for Jr. APD is to even the playing field.

Even the playing field? are you acoustic? The playing field was even before sAPD decided that they needed 10 hunters every wave and started doing so against MK1's and T3's.

5 minutes ago, JDC said:

And quite frankly the same civilians that complain about proportionate response are the same ones who do the SAME thing when they play cop (mass armor pull, authorize Jr. lethals) .

If its okay for APD to do it why is it not fine for the same civilians that has it happen to them on cop to do it?

Just now, Orbit said:

If you don't bring the gear then you could have argued in an IA

We have done that and we have IA'd for that. Still no results

[monster 5665]

1 minute ago, Orbit said:

If you don't bring the gear then you could have argued in an IA

You played with us longer enough to know how far an IA goes.

[ZimZim 258]

Just now, monster said:

You played with us longer enough to know how far that goes.

Weird cause @ SPBojo  was just informing me that all of Aegis IAs get looked at without bias and get appropriate action taken 

 

[monster 5665]

Just now, ZimZim said:

Weird cause @ SPBojo  was just informing me that all of Aegis IAs get looked at without bias and get appropriate action taken 

 

think he fell asleep and was dreaming a bit

[SPBojo 6863]

Just now, monster said:

think he fell asleep and was dreaming a bit

It was a really nice dream....