Dispute System Needs Changed

[coopacarp 200]

I recently ran into an issue where I was blatantly VDM'd and it had cost me about 1 mil or more worth of gear and Uranium. I attempted to dispute the people involved, I disputed one person correctly but I made a mistake and in my video I saw the name of a player I thought was involved but wasn't, I realized this too late and couldn't dispute against the player that actually VDM'd me. So now I am being told by staff in my reports that they are denying my reports due to the fact that I do not have a dispute against the player BUT I literally cannot dispute the guy that did it because his name is no longer on the list of people to dispute. I have been trying for roughly 3 days to get online at the same time as the other guy to file a dispute but he either changed his name or just doesn't get on and because of all that I am not able to get a report on him and get compensated what I lost. The dispute system itself is awesome but there should be certain circumstances where it is acceptable NOT to dispute. Obviously it's my fault for fucking up and not submitting a dispute on the right guy but does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to report him until he magically gets on the same time I do? Just curious what opinions are on this.

[buckie 3293]

@ Doc

[Panda :) 1916]

32 minutes ago, coopacarp said:

 

The dispute system is pretty new to me personally I have been gone for the past few weeks and haven’t had to interact with it yet, but I have heard @ Doc  talk about the dispute systems if I remember correctly (and I may not) he said that the player list shows all players online and ones that have also recently disconnected and shows them for a while, but I understand that accidents happen and it maybe too late and they will no longer be on the list. Have you tried making a ticket explaining the situation fully because I don’t see a reason why you should be denied at least comp.

[coopacarp 200]

24 minutes ago, Panda said:

The dispute system is pretty new to me personally I have been gone for the past few weeks and haven’t had to interact with it yet, but I have heard @ Doc  talk about the dispute systems if I remember correctly (and I may not) he said that the player list shows all players online and ones that have also recently disconnected and shows them for a while, but I understand that accidents happen and it maybe too late and they will no longer be on the list. Have you tried making a ticket explaining the situation fully because I don’t see a reason why you should be denied at least comp.

I just made my third report explaining in detail that I actually can't dispute him. Hopefully it goes well

[Conqueeftador 259]

Personally I have my opinions on this system. 

On one hand, they literally make it impossible and give 0 incentive to report a player and they are making it impossible.

On the other, it gives someone the chance to get a resolution before even escalating to staff (but let’s be real who actually has had a successful dispute yet)

 

I just think it needs revamping and this should NOT be a requirement to submit a player report. At all. It simply is staff not wanting to do their job. Just cause a dispute wasn’t opened, doesn’t mean the rules suddenly changed? So why can’t the report be processed, who knows?

[Poon 196]

1 hour ago, coopacarp said:

, I realized this too late and couldn't dispute against the player that actually VDM'd me.

you can dispute any player who has logged on in the last 6 hours. and for next time before filing a dispute you should look carefully to make sure you have the right person

4 minutes ago, JD Connor said:

On one hand, they literally make it impossible and give 0 incentive to report a player and they are making it impossible.

 

the whole point of disputes is to make player reports less common and giving the player who would usually just get banned a chance to explain their side, disputes do not have to be fully resolved before you can submit a player report.

[Toretto 562]

I think it's extremely pointless to comp someone if a player can still report. I can get comp for what I lost and then report the person. I definitely think a moderator/admin should take into consideration punishing players if comp was received.

Also, it would be helpful to have information like their Steam ID on the disputes.  I disputed one guy and he said "I don't have enough money..." I eventually found him on the stats page (lacking a search by name feature) and he had more than enough money to comp.  I never escalated it to staff.

[Poon 196]

3 minutes ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

I think it's extremely pointless to comp someone if a player can still report. I can get comp for what I lost and then report the person. I definitely think a moderator/admin should take into consideration punishing players if comp was received.

Also, it would be helpful to have information like their Steam ID on the disputes.  I disputed one guy and he said "I don't have enough money..." I eventually found him on the stats page (lacking a search by name feature) and he had more than enough money to comp.  I never escalated it to staff.

ok, im not staff but when a staff member is looking at a player report they also look at the dispute and if they go in there and see that the player being reported comped a reasonable amount of money then chances are they arent going to get banned.

Disputes have the players names in there which can easily be used to find steam/forums profiles and then player ID's to put into the stats page.

[coopacarp 200]

5 minutes ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

I think it's extremely pointless to comp someone if a player can still report. I can get comp for what I lost and then report the person. I definitely think a moderator/admin should take into consideration punishing players if comp was received.

Also, it would be helpful to have information like their Steam ID on the disputes.  I disputed one guy and he said "I don't have enough money..." I eventually found him on the stats page (lacking a search by name feature) and he had more than enough money to comp.  I never escalated it to staff.

Actually if you both agree to accepting comp and you still report the player, they can very easily show staff you agreed to accepting compensation and they will not be punished. If you comp them without agreement then that's your fault for assuming throwing money around will keep you out of trouble.

12 minutes ago, Poon said:

you can dispute any player who has logged on in the last 6 hours. and for next time before filing a dispute you should look carefully to make sure you have the right person

the whole point of disputes is to make player reports less common and giving the player who would usually just get banned a chance to explain their side, disputes do not have to be fully resolved before you can submit a player report.

I appreciate the response however you haven't really given any input that is new/helpful. I already mentioned that I am aware of the time in which I have to submit a dispute on said person and I am very aware I made a mistake which consequently made it so he is no longer on my dispute list but the question is does me making a mistake that prohibits me filing a dispute mean that I do not deserve to be comped or that player that blatantly broke rules doesn't deserve a possible ban or whatever punishment? My simple mistake shouldn't cost me so much especially when the player was blatantly trolling (I can show the vid if you would like). 

[Toretto 562]

4 minutes ago, Poon said:

Disputes have the players names in there which can easily be used to find steam/forums profiles and then player ID's to put into the stats page.

Yeah man out of the four people I was trying to hunt down for the dispute only one had a forum account and the forum account was barren.  No steam ID on their forum account.  The other three don't have a forum account to my knowledge, and their steam names were not the same as their in-game names.  I think a simple "search by name" feature on the stats page would more than suffice!  I'd gladly volunteer myself to write the feature into the website.  Open that ish up for me to make a pull request and I'll get it done when I can.

[johnny goose 3335]

3 hours ago, JD Connor said:

On the other, it gives someone the chance to get a resolution before even escalating to staff (but let’s be real who actually has had a successful dispute yet)

 

all of my disputes including one with you have been resolved with no bans or comp just people thinking they know rules.

[SPBojo 6863]

I like it, a gang member needed money to push so he sent me a dispute, ez 10 / 10 system.

 

In reality tho, new system, it has its cons and pros but with the community's help it can get made better

[coopacarp 200]

5 minutes ago, SimpPatrolBlojo said:

I like it, a gang member needed money to push so he sent me a dispute, ez 10 / 10 system.

 

In reality tho, new system, it has its cons and pros but with the community's help it can get made better

Damn man why you gotta make it public, they're gonna found a way around that ;( lmao

25 minutes ago, Strafe said:

all of my disputes including one with you have been resolved with no bans or comp just people thinking they know rules.

A lot of my disputes have been solved or I got told to fuck myself and they got banned, I just don't think you should be required to dispute every single time you want to report someone. There should be special circumstances where you aren't forced to dispute. I have no idea when I will be able to report the guy that VDM'd me because I guarantee he changed his name or just doesn't get on often. So that's a pretty big flaw they gotta work on because it allows people that break rules to get off free

[Ryan 6821]

4 hours ago, JD Connor said:

Personally I have my opinions on this system. 

On one hand, they literally make it impossible and give 0 incentive to report a player and they are making it impossible.

On the other, it gives someone the chance to get a resolution before even escalating to staff (but let’s be real who actually has had a successful dispute yet)

 

I just think it needs revamping and this should NOT be a requirement to submit a player report. At all. It simply is staff not wanting to do their job. Just cause a dispute wasn’t opened, doesn’t mean the rules suddenly changed? So why can’t the report be processed, who knows?

Funny enough, ill be the first to admit the admins and mods were the first group of people to fight against the dispute systems, because of the exact reasons you are listing. They prefer to deal with the ticket and not be accused of being lazy. It was the seniors that kind of just... did it. Adjustments obviously have to be made as its a new system but thats natural with anything new we will announce. I will say, looking at the numbers, out of 1,445 disputes that have already been submitted, there is roughly a ~66% resolve rate through disputes. Thats roughly ~900 bans that were either avoided or reduced. Long term think about how that effects population on our servers. My numbers can 100% be off, but this was just at the quick glance I had.

4 hours ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

I think it's extremely pointless to comp someone if a player can still report. I can get comp for what I lost and then report the person. I definitely think a moderator/admin should take into consideration punishing players if comp was received.

Also, it would be helpful to have information like their Steam ID on the disputes.  I disputed one guy and he said "I don't have enough money..." I eventually found him on the stats page (lacking a search by name feature) and he had more than enough money to comp.  I never escalated it to staff.

Everything is logged on our end, even if you cant find their steam id, we 100% can. Doesnt matter if they have a forum profile or not. A dispute is looked at during player reports, and if comp was received its very likely they will not be punished, however it is a case by case basis. As for the search name feature, it actually does exist but for people within life control only. Reason being is because there is so many duplicate names it would be just as hard to find with that name as it is without a PID if not worse. Also this post below says it best:

4 hours ago, Poon said:

ok, im not staff but when a staff member is looking at a player report they also look at the dispute and if they go in there and see that the player being reported comped a reasonable amount of money then chances are they arent going to get banned.

Disputes have the players names in there which can easily be used to find steam/forums profiles and then player ID's to put into the stats page.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, coopacarp said:

Actually if you both agree to accepting comp and you still report the player, they can very easily show staff you agreed to accepting compensation and they will not be punished. If you comp them without agreement then that's your fault for assuming throwing money around will keep you out of trouble.

I appreciate the response however you haven't really given any input that is new/helpful. I already mentioned that I am aware of the time in which I have to submit a dispute on said person and I am very aware I made a mistake which consequently made it so he is no longer on my dispute list but the question is does me making a mistake that prohibits me filing a dispute mean that I do not deserve to be comped or that player that blatantly broke rules doesn't deserve a possible ban or whatever punishment? My simple mistake shouldn't cost me so much especially when the player was blatantly trolling (I can show the vid if you would like). 

Im sure if you sent a PM to the denying staff member, or asked for an escalation in your case certain exceptions can be made. This is not a promise on my end for comp, but it sounds like if the situation is really scuffed against you, the staff team is more then capable of handling it if necessary.

 

4 hours ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

Yeah man out of the four people I was trying to hunt down for the dispute only one had a forum account and the forum account was barren.  No steam ID on their forum account.  The other three don't have a forum account to my knowledge, and their steam names were not the same as their in-game names.  I think a simple "search by name" feature on the stats page would more than suffice!  I'd gladly volunteer myself to write the feature into the website.  Open that ish up for me to make a pull request and I'll get it done when I can.

Read my statement above about the search name feature.

 

1 hour ago, coopacarp said:

Damn man why you gotta make it public, they're gonna found a way around that ;( lmao

A lot of my disputes have been solved or I got told to fuck myself and they got banned, I just don't think you should be required to dispute every single time you want to report someone. There should be special circumstances where you aren't forced to dispute. I have no idea when I will be able to report the guy that VDM'd me because I guarantee he changed his name or just doesn't get on often. So that's a pretty big flaw they gotta work on because it allows people that break rules to get off free

Every report/dispute is a case by case basis. We just want to see a dispute being placed to see that there's at least effort being put in to resolve your issue and not a witch hunt for a ban.

[Conqueeftador 259]

1 hour ago, Ryan said:

Funny enough, ill be the first to admit the admins and mods were the first group of people to fight against the dispute systems, because of the exact reasons you are listing. They prefer to deal with the ticket and not be accused of being lazy. It was the seniors that kind of just... did it. Adjustments obviously have to be made as its a new system but thats natural with anything new we will announce. I will say, looking at the numbers, out of 1,445 disputes that have already been submitted, there is roughly a ~66% resolve rate through disputes. Thats roughly ~900 bans that were either avoided or reduced. Long term think about how that effects population on our servers. My numbers can 100% be off, but this was just at the quick glance I had.

See this is why I like Ryan (and posting on the forums speaking my mind) because I think having the actual numbers and being able to understand the system is actually working somewhat is nice. It changes my perspective a little bit even thought I was on the fence.

I didn’t want to come off that staff were lazy and pathetic (as they aren’t and they work their asses off) but simply that I, am average user, didn’t feel the system was actually working. However, with the numbers being publicly released like this really shifts that. I’m glad to see it’s working and I really hope the kinks continue to get ironed out. I just still believe it shouldn’t be mandatory to submit a dispute before a report. That is the only part in which my opinion has not changed.

[Toretto 562]

1 hour ago, Ryan said:

As for the search name feature, it actually does exist but for people within life control only. Reason being is because there is so many duplicate names it would be just as hard to find with that name as it is without a PID if not worse. Also this post below says it best

Any chance you dudes could open this up to the public? Maybe using a “lastLoginedIn” datetime paired with the name would help. Like if the person hasn’t logged into the server in the past 14 days then they don’t appear in the search. It would help with the duplicates.

[Ryan 6821]

7 minutes ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

Any chance you dudes could open this up to the public? Maybe using a “lastLoginedIn” datetime paired with the name would help. Like if the person hasn’t logged into the server in the past 14 days then they don’t appear in the search. It would help with the duplicates.

Pretty sure Zahzi had another good reason to not make it public. Not sure though, but I can imagine he would of done it by now if he didnt have any issues.

[Poon 196]

2 hours ago, JD Connor said:

I just still believe it shouldn’t be mandatory to submit a dispute before a report.

it is mandatory because they are trying to stop petty bans, IMO its good because atleast the person who is going to be banned has a chance to rectify their mistake before just being hit with a ban.

[coopacarp 200]

4 hours ago, Ryan said:

Funny enough, ill be the first to admit the admins and mods were the first group of people to fight against the dispute systems, because of the exact reasons you are listing. They prefer to deal with the ticket and not be accused of being lazy. It was the seniors that kind of just... did it. Adjustments obviously have to be made as its a new system but thats natural with anything new we will announce. I will say, looking at the numbers, out of 1,445 disputes that have already been submitted, there is roughly a ~66% resolve rate through disputes. Thats roughly ~900 bans that were either avoided or reduced. Long term think about how that effects population on our servers. My numbers can 100% be off, but this was just at the quick glance I had.

sure if you sent a PM to the denying staff member, or asked for an escalation in your case certain exceptions can be made. This is not a promise on my end for comp, but it sounds like if the situation is really scuffed against you, the staff team is more then capable of handling it if necessary.

 

Every report/dispute is a case by case basis. We just want to see a dispute being placed to see that there's at least effort being put in to resolve your issue and not a witch hunt for a ban.

I like the dispute system like I said, of course naturally people are going to assume staff are lazy if they release something that lightens their load so I don't really have a problem with the disputes in that regard because I don't think the staff are lazy for wanting to have grown ass people settle their own shit before trying to get bans, I just have an issue with the requirement. I notice you said that you just want to see a dispute being placed to show you aren't just witch hunting and that is completely awesome and a fair thing to do. I do however believe in my circumstance at least that if it has been multiple days and a dispute hasn't been possible, they have had more than enough time to have a chance to resolve the issue. Maybe having something like  *If you are unable to dispute the player for 3 or more days you can file a report* or some shit might help. I did manage to catch a member of their gang online and received their Olympus stats page so that was a bit of a win but that only gives me their ign and doesn't really get me a dispute. Just feels like a weird little grey area that really needs to be defined because it causes a hassle for players in my situation that just want comped lol. Oh and I did actually message the staff that denied my most recent (albeit slightly aggro and I apologized for that) but sadly they haven't gotten back to me yet, I just made this to highlight the problem publicly and have it known and out there so it can be worked on.

[The Antichrist 237]

I love how this system kind of stomps the toxicity out of these things.  "ADMINS ARE ALWAYS WATCHING" has a way of forcing professional conduct.

[DevLevSoup 16]

Fix what @ coopacarp said. This has happened to me. Otherwise it’s golden honestly. Seems like everyday I’m logging on with money in my deposit box because of this system. Comp is all anyone wants anyway. 

[Conqueeftador 259]

6 hours ago, Poon said:

it is mandatory because they are trying to stop petty bans, IMO its good because atleast the person who is going to be banned has a chance to rectify their mistake before just being hit with a ban.

So youre telling me I should open a dispute and tell someone saying the N word to me to comp me so they dont get banned? Like idk I think thats just stupid. I think it should be optional REGARDLESS of the type of ban. Define a "petty" ban. That could literally be anything.

[codeYeTi 962]

17 hours ago, coopacarp said:

BUT I literally cannot dispute the guy that did it because his name is no longer on the list of people to dispute

I wrote a lot of the disputes system on the in-game side, and making sure that the right player(s) were in the list  without it's size being completely unmanageable took a few tricks. After talking to you in game yesterday, I identified at least one way that one's name would not show up, and a resolution is being worked on. As with any new system, there are a few kinks to work out after the first pass. If someone was in game, and you try to submit a dispute against them immediately thereafter, their name should be present; if it's not, then we'll get that fixed.

The likely cause of nigh all of the incidences of a player's name being missing from the creation menu has been identified, and a fix is in the works. It's important to remember, though, that disputes were designed to be submitted relatively close to the time of the incident, akin to a "wtf rdm" text from yesteryear, but with the ability to include recently disconnected players in possible recipients.

9 hours ago, [OP4] Dominic said:

Any chance you dudes could open this up to the public? Maybe using a “lastLoginedIn” datetime paired with the name would help. Like if the person hasn’t logged into the server in the past 14 days then they don’t appear in the search. It would help with the duplicates.

I agree this selection style still isn't perfect, and hearing things like this can help improve it

While not ideal, even in it's current state, the player's last seen time is shown on the following screen when you're filling in a Subject and Description; this would at least allow you to tell whether or not you selected the correct one at that stage. I agree that some way of displaying that info on the initial selection menu would be nice, I just didn't find a decent way to do it in a compact enough manner on this first pass. I'll play with a few things and see if we could come up with a decent way to display that earlier without cluttering the list making it even harder to read / sort through.

Before they were separated by faction, it was even harder to find people when the list was super full. I definitely agree adding more hints like that could help.

[Lynchy 21]

18 hours ago, coopacarp said:

I recently ran into an issue where I was blatantly VDM'd and it had cost me about 1 mil or more worth of gear and Uranium. I attempted to dispute the people involved, I disputed one person correctly but I made a mistake and in my video I saw the name of a player I thought was involved but wasn't, I realized this too late and couldn't dispute against the player that actually VDM'd me. So now I am being told by staff in my reports that they are denying my reports due to the fact that I do not have a dispute against the player BUT I literally cannot dispute the guy that did it because his name is no longer on the list of people to dispute. I have been trying for roughly 3 days to get online at the same time as the other guy to file a dispute but he either changed his name or just doesn't get on and because of all that I am not able to get a report on him and get compensated what I lost. The dispute system itself is awesome but there should be certain circumstances where it is acceptable NOT to dispute. Obviously it's my fault for fucking up and not submitting a dispute on the right guy but does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to report him until he magically gets on the same time I do? Just curious what opinions are on this.

I have to agree, the Dispute system is fucking stupid when it comes to reports. I get it in terms of keeping "Comp or ban" messages separate from initiation messages or what not but I had an issue with it my self.

 

I was trying to rob a player who ended up combat logging on me and I had the whole thing clipped. I made a comp & player report on the forums and I was told that due to the fact I didn't dispute the person the claim was invalid, even though the whole clip speaks for its self. Case was closed and end of. That wasn't good enough for me. I made a new report in hopes of getting an staff member with more brain cells than a fucking potato, I explained that I couldn't physically dispute the player as they were literally not on the list.

 

Thankfully this time around brain cells were used and my comp was received and the player was banned. Its quite clear to see that some staff are fucking lazy and its easier for them to just mark it as invalid or so.

 

Really fear if this is the case for other situations. Whats stopping someone coming on to the server, Nuking the shit out of it with hacks and because there was no disputes it's just "Invalid".

[JDC 297]

I don’t understand why we have to have a dispute ID for a player reports. It seems pointless.