Bit Of An Injustice For the TNM Boys Sets a Dangerous Precedent:

[The Antichrist 213]

So basically, my homie Boovin catches a ban for using a suivest to wipe out the entire APD, whom he is rightfully engaged with as he has a tagged gangmate and dashing gentleman known as vigi punisher in restraints.  

Boovin and another scout it out from a climbable vantage point to scout the apd. 
From there they can see he's generally either in pillboxes or buyhut area.  Picture not from situation, but for context, TNM fights cops from here a lot so it's normal behavior for them.  

Houses in the area, he swaps gear and grabs a vest.  His intention is to kill every last cop and reset the entire situation.  He knows a cop is not in the large group of cops as his friend isn't present, and he watched him take his friend off, in that direction, and there is one not present in the group.  So determined to kill every last cop he charges in.  He makes it past the cops who ARE ENGAGED WITH HIM AS THEY HAVE HIS GANGMATE (once again, the dashing Vigi Punisher).  

The police had every right and reason to engage on or shoot at a man charging into APD with a suivest but they hold their fire!   WHY?  Because for some reason, Karma mistakenly believes that someone has to engage separately to use a suivest, so  he was yelling at the entire APD to not engage him, and to let him pass.  So instead of tazing him and seizing his suivest, they let him waltz right up to the final cop because of HIS MISTAKE and come in physical contact with the only cop in a protected pillbox.  Once in contact with the final cop, he detonates and kills every cop  in the group.

Karma, embarrassed by this blunder, got him banned under the grounds of 'he ran past the  big group of cops' which isn't surprising at all if he wanted to kill EVERY COP.  You can see he managed to not only kill the cop in the pillbox but all the cops behind him in the group.  His tactics were silly but they worked because Karma didn't understand a rule.  His goal was accomplished in totality.  

Staff, however, interpreted this as a rulebreak because of an apparent ability to read Boovins mind and extract the information that the final cop  is not the target, but the man in restraints, in a room he never even completely physically entered, choosing to physically hold the cop in place instead.   It is uncertain if this psychic is related to Olympus Entertainments infamous '13th Floor,' where they are alleged to have teams of psychics  bringing their abilities together to prove their friends aren't hackers, and to convince people Strafe's memes are funny... but I digress.

What we have here is simple.  Couldn't get him with one rule imagined by Karma that didn't exist, so they got him with a rule based on his intentions.  But those presumptions to know his intentions are completely destroyed by one simple fact, the cop processing him would have survived to continue processing his friend if he didn't make his way to the back.  That in NO WAY impeded his ability to kill the people he already passed up. 

Unban him if he's still banned.  Re-review this situation.  Clear the ban from his record please.  This whole situation sets an extremely gray area precedent that is going to punish and discourage people from using expensive weapons in the future.  This stretch of the rules banned a guy over a handful of cops who immediately respawn and lose nothing, and a guy with 100k bounty dying in restraints and it's frankly, fucking ridiculous.  
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POV'S
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Karmas point of view.  Note that HE ordered everyone to let him pass, thus giving him opportunity to position himself to kill ALL the cops.  
 

He doesn't even get into the room, he just jams up doofy at the door with his closest physical contact being a cop.

@ Grandma Gary   For the good of Olympus rule precedent, and for the boys, I'm asking for your help to prevent gray area rules based on presumed motivation to not become the future of rules like this.  Collateral damage happens with explosives, it's part of the fun, and he accomplished his task in totality and therefore did nothing wrong.  

I have the POV of TNM's side of things, but won't drop it publicly due to potential leaking of civilian assets, but I would share it with staff that care to review it.  

I can confidently say this was not a metagaming situation.  Comms and GPS were respected and he acquired his gangmates and the cop processing him's general location from scouting, and tracked him down with sound and eyes.  In his own video hes following the sound of his gangmate being processed, while panning all the different windows until he sees a blue tag through a  pillbox.  

[Fuzz^ 243]

free bro

[Karma 431]

I hate to tell you but the way the rule works is basically, you can't intentionally set off a suicide vest to kill players in restraints unless you are engaged upon while wearing the vest hence why I gave the order to not engage.

I will not stand for this slander sov I thought someone such as yourself would know rules regarding explosives.

[The Antichrist 213]

Just now, Karma said:

I hate to tell you but the way the rule works is basically, you can't intentionally set off a suicide vest to kill players in restraints unless you are engaged upon while wearing the vest hence why I gave the order to not engage.

I will not stand for this slander sov I thought someone such as yourself would know rules regarding explosives.

I personally like you Karma.  This isn't a Karma hate campaign.

This is just an interpretation of the rules that relies on mind reading.  

Ask yourself this one question... if he didn't run to the pillbox what would have happened?  He would have let the cop processing his friend live.  He would have changed absolutely nothing about the situation.   He was completely justified.  

If he ran into that pillbox and there was no cop in that pillbox, the ban would have been justified.  But if there was a cop to kill in there, it's unjustified gibberish based on alleged psychic abilities.  

[Lucien 2953]

Yeah this rule/interpretation is dumb, should just give cops a payout when seizing gear like they have for illegal y so there is benefit to them taking a vest and just let civs try it tbh

[Karma 431]

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

This is just an interpretation of the rules that relies on mind reading.  

Ask yourself this one question... if he didn't run to the pillbox what would have happened?  He would have let the cop processing his friend live.  He would have changed absolutely nothing about the situation.   He was completely justified.  

If he didn't run towards the pill box I probably would've engaged him but whatever, I think the reason for the rule not being more clear is they don't want the rule list to be longer then it already is. 

"Misuse of suicide vests to kill restrained players or destroy vehicles for no reason may still result in administrative action."

I get it's a little grey but that's where experience (and mind reading) comes in of knowing the grey areas regarding the rules, there's a slew of things in there that are rule breaks but aren't explicitly written

[The Antichrist 213]

Just now, Karma said:

 destroy vehicles for no reason

There was a cop in that pillbox trying to send his friend to jail.  He had the best possible reason.  

This ban never should have happened and it's ridiculously  pushing the line back far enough that it's going to result in a lot of really stupid bans in the future.  

[Karma 431]

Yeah I don't know don't shoot me I just know how the rules are interpreted when it comes to killing people in restraints and how staff see it. Shame it's not written more clearly.

[The Antichrist 213]

Just now, Karma said:

Yeah I don't know don't shoot me I just know how the rules are interpreted when it comes to killing people in restraints and how staff see it. Shame it's not written more clearly.

Well it's too gray to be allowed and it got a longstanding and active member of the community banned over something that was clearly against the spirit of the rule. 

"No Reason" has always been interpreted as 'without killing someone you are properly engaged with."  It should stay like that so that upset people can't just make a case that presumes someones motives.  

His actions of going back to that pillbox resulted in the death of one more cop than there would have been had he not.  Not only was it one more cop, but it was the cop that was actively processing his friend, thus, the prime target in the first place.  

@ David Miller  I respectfully ask that you take this situation into account in its entirety and reevaluate your decision.  I believe you made the wrong call in this situation and it opens a pandora's box to a lot of really stupid bans in the future.  

[The Antichrist 213]

30 minutes ago, Karma said:

I hate to tell you but the way the rule works is basically, you can't intentionally set off a suicide vest to kill players in restraints unless you are engaged upon while wearing the vest hence why I gave the order to not engage.

I will not stand for this slander sov I thought someone such as yourself would know rules regarding explosives.

You also asked for 500k comp.  For what?  Your cop kit?   His friend with the 100k bounty that died?  We all get in moods like that sometimes, I'm not trying to be mean.  I'm actually glad you tried to extort my friend because this is something that needed to be cleared up about the rules anyways and I'm confident someone's gonna make this right.  

[Karma 431]

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

You also asked for 500k comp.  For what?  Your cop kit?   His friend with the 100k bounty that died?  We all get in moods like that sometimes, I'm not trying to be mean.  I'm actually glad you tried to extort my friend because this is something that needed to be cleared up about the rules anyways and I'm confident someone's gonna make this right.  

Now this is actually just slander. I requested 300k for property damage, emotional damage and bounty. 

[The Antichrist 213]

4 minutes ago, Karma said:

Now this is actually just slander. I requested 300k for property damage, emotional damage and bounty. 

Still.  They spent 600k on a vest and killed a guy with a 100k bounty because they were having fun, and a rule got completely twisted around to ban him when you guys lost like 10k a piece in what should have been a completely legal suivest detonation.

I reiterate Mr Karma,  I like you.  But it's hard to make an argument you weren't being a petty dick here.  We ALL are sometimes.  I get it.  But you were.  And this player report somehow skated by when it shouldn't have.

[Ben Shapiro 1110]

sorry for cheating on cop @ spinbot 

[mrs nesbitt 3221]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

It is uncertain if this psychic is related to Olympus Entertainments infamous '13th Floor,' where they are alleged to have teams of psychics  bringing their abilities together to prove their friends aren't hackers, and to convince people Strafe's memes are funny

 

[Grandma Gary 10352]

Beelined straight for the restrained guy.  Both POV actually make the case pretty clear cut.

Justified ban ^_^

[Skys 1581]

APD taking Ls

[The Antichrist 213]

1 hour ago, Grandma Gary said:

Beelined straight for the restrained guy.  Both POV actually make the case pretty clear cut.

Justified ban ^_^

Alternatively, B-lined straight for the only cop that wasn't in his blast radius.  and ultimately killed every cop because of it, including the main target, the cop who was processing his gang mate.

[Mayo762 62]

Yeah this is dumb, he was properly engaged and activated his suicide vest and a bunch of cops who just re spawn with gear died, shouldn't have resulted in a ban but hey APD wins again!

[silton 4036]

1 hour ago, Grandma Gary said:

Beelined straight for the restrained guy.  Both POV actually make the case pretty clear cut.

Justified ban ^_^

You make me sick. This has always been crossfire.

[The Antichrist 213]

2 hours ago, King Of The Pond said:

 

At least your meme's are better than Jpostman's.  That dude just tries to be like a more autistic version of you.

[Rufus 308]

4 hours ago, Karma said:

I hate to tell you but the way the rule works is basically, you can't intentionally set off a suicide vest to kill players in restraints unless you are engaged upon while wearing the vest hence why I gave the order to not engage.

I will not stand for this slander sov I thought someone such as yourself would know rules regarding explosives.

Anime Avatar.

[Boovin 354]

The cops paid us to do it check the +500k at the end

https://imgur.com/a/DkRVBBt

[Rufus 308]

4 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

You also asked for 500k comp.  For what?  Your cop kit?   His friend with the 100k bounty that died?  We all get in moods like that sometimes, I'm not trying to be mean.  I'm actually glad you tried to extort my friend because this is something that needed to be cleared up about the rules anyways and I'm confident someone's gonna make this right.  

Admins have said that extortion under certain circumstances is fine. Like if it's a mega obvious rule break, it's ok for them to extort money. Vigi Punisher got clarification on it after he rammed a cop heli and they tried extorting a crazy amount. 

[The Antichrist 213]

Even as the rule is as you say it is now written and interpreted, which is very very stupid and open to abuse of interpretation, it still should not apply in this situation, because by him going there, he killed ALL OF THE COPS, and had he not, he wouldn't have.  Banning him is like banning someone for thinking about doing a crime, even if you believe that was his intention.  The end result, is all that matters, and the end result says that was the best tactical play to kill 100% of the cops instead of 90%.

But I repeat, he knew that cop was there.  And saying he shouldn't have went in the pillbox is literally just saying he wasnt allowed to wipe the cops, just most of them.

And saying he had no choice but to spare the cop that was processing his friend to avoid killing his friend.

[Rufus 308]

19 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Even as the rule is as you say it is now written and interpreted, which is very very stupid and open to abuse of interpretation, it still should not apply in this situation, because by him going there, he killed ALL OF THE COPS, and had he not, he wouldn't have.  Banning him is like banning someone for thinking about doing a crime, even if you believe that was his intention.  The end result, is all that matters, and the end result says that was the best tactical play to kill 100% of the cops instead of 90%.

But I repeat, he knew that cop was there.  And saying he shouldn't have went in the pillbox is literally just saying he wasnt allowed to wipe the cops, just most of them.

And saying he had no choice but to spare the cop that was processing his friend to avoid killing his friend.

He also needed to check if I was still being processed and if initiation was ongoing. I had my comms and GPS taken, he had no way of knowing if he needed to initiate again.