APD lethal force clarification

[Ozzy Jones 362]

So I've been studying the APD handbook for a while now, and one of the areas I don't feel comfortable with is when the APD can use lethal force, particularly outside the context of jailbreaks and fed robberies.  Could someone knowledgeable please describe a few non-fed/jail scenarios where APD can load lethals?  Also, I see a potential conflict between the 3:1 rule for lethals, and the 3:1 rule for surrendering -- how does that work out?

[Skeeter McGraw 45]

Lethals can be loaded like you said. Say if your on top of a office building shooting civs, we tazed you twice and tell you to get down both times and you dont get down. Lethals can be loaded. The 3:1 Rule is iffy, I only try to fight when I can take out more than 2 people. If its more than 4 people I just surrender unless they are far away. So basically If non-lethals fail twice, Lethals can be loaded. 

[Adaptation 28]

 Lethal's may be loaded when 2 non-lethal waves have failed to solve the on-going situation. 

 When your out number 3 to 1 you may surrender if there is no tactical cover that you can protect yourself from. 

Lethal's can only be loaded by corporal's and higher. Unless you are using a SDAR 

[Corporal Moob 3316]

Lethals can be loaded like you said. Say if your on top of a office building shooting civs, we tazed you twice and tell you to get down both times and you dont get down.

Doesn't really apply to that. Might wanna read up on those. Because that doesn't define failed. By that logic I can taze a freshspawn, stand on his body, taze him again, and then when he gets up, just kill him?

[Ozzy Jones 362]

Doesn't really apply to that. Might wanna read up on those. Because that doesn't define failed. By that logic I can taze a freshspawn, stand on his body, taze him again, and then when he gets up, just kill him?

Well right away, it's pretty apparent that I'm definitely not the only one here who is hazy on this. 

Does using lethals ALWAYS mean that there's been a situation that required waves?  If not, what other sorts of situations?  What is the definition of "a failed attempt."?

[Brennan 568]

The 3rd wave rule applies to any on-going situation. If it is your run of the mill red zone (not Fed or Jail) then it is still after three waves if those people decide to stay there for that long.

 

OUT SIDE OF WAVE ENGAGEMENT LETHALS CAN BE LOADED IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS (AS FOLLOWS):

When NOT engaging in a red zone or other place that require waves to respond to, if you die to the same person/group 2 times in a row while they stay in the same area or your fellow officers are still actively engaged with or chasing them you can then load lethals.

A failed attempt is basically dying.

[Ozzy Jones 362]

Basically the 3rd wave rule applies to any on-going situation. If it is your run of the mill red zone (not Fed or Jail) then it is still after three waves if those people decide to stay there for that long.

 

When NOT engaging in a red zone or other place that require waves to respond to, if you die to the same person/group 2 times in a row while they stay in the same area or your fellow officers are still chasing them you can then load lethals.

So, if you're correct about this, the definition of "failed attempt" is, precisely, "died trying".  Can anyone else confirm?  If so it should probably be phrased this way in the handbook.

The reason I see some ambiguity in "failed attempt" is that I can foresee a situation where a suspect temporarily outruns APD and goes out of visual contact... if/when APD catches back up would it be considered a separate "attempt"?  

  

[Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup 3039]

Ozzy, this is the way I do it.  If outnumbered 3:1 ratio then I load them if I see I can effectively handle the situation, if not I surrender.  Also, if I have died two times in a situation in Sofia for example ( doesn't have to be a red zone ) then I'm coming back with lethals. Feds and Jails are different.  If there are 7 or less officers and you have gone through one wave you can load lethals.  If there are 7 or more officers then you load lethals after the second corporal wave.  

I hope I cleared it out for you.  Let me know.  

[Guest]

Lethals can be loaded like you said. Say if your on top of a office building shooting civs, we tazed you twice and tell you to get down both times and you dont get down. Lethals can be loaded. The 3:1 Rule is iffy, I only try to fight when I can take out more than 2 people. If its more than 4 people I just surrender unless they are far away. So basically If non-lethals fail twice, Lethals can be loaded. 

This is not correct, especially in this scenario.

Firstly, if there's an office building and someone is on top of it and you taze them, you command other officers to go up the ladder and restrain the guy. 

Secondly as a corporal, if someone is on top of a roof you can't reach you have an officer keep them tazed while you the corporal pull a helicopter to go secure the restrain.

 

Let me put it simply like this. A non-lethal solution fails twice if the same corporal(Or higher) dies twice in the same engagement. So if I die twice in kavala to the same situation, then I can come back with lethals loaded and any other corporal+ in the situation can load lethals since I died twice. The ONLY other situation to load lethals outside of fed/jail is when outnumbered.

 

To clear it up, if I'm outnumbered 3:1 and I have cover immediately available, I will load lethals and stick to cover. Cover, such as a concrete wall or metal container. If I am outnumbered 3:1 and it's pretty obvious I have no good cover and ESPECIALLY if I'm in a crossfire, I will throw my hands up.

[Dejay 796]

theres a difference between being surrounded 3:1, and being outnumbered 3:1. If you are not surrounded and say maybe only 2 people are looking at you and another rebel is looking somewhere else. Obviously you are outnumbered 3:1 but not surrounded. to sum up what mcdili said

[drama 2979]

TLDR: If you spawn in Kavala, instantly load lethals at all time. Hope this helped

[Ozzy Jones 362]

A non-lethal solution fails twice if the same corporal(Or higher) dies twice in the same engagement. So if I die twice in kavala to the same situation, then I can come back with lethals loaded and any other corporal+ in the situation can load lethals since I died twice. The ONLY other situation to load lethals outside of fed/jail is when outnumbered.

 

To clear it up, if I'm outnumbered 3:1 and I have cover immediately available, I will load lethals and stick to cover. Cover, such as a concrete wall or metal container. If I am outnumbered 3:1 and it's pretty obvious I have no good cover and ESPECIALLY if I'm in a crossfire, I will throw my hands up.

Handbook material.

[Guest]

Handbook material.

Failure of a non-lethal solution is defined by 2 failed attempts with a non-lethal option by the individual officer..

1. Lethal loading waves are not counted until a Corporal or higher has gone through at least 2 waves.

 

 

Straight from the handbook.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Guest

[Ozzy Jones 362]

Failure of a non-lethal solution is defined by 2 failed attempts with a non-lethal option by the individual officer..

1. Lethal loading waves are not counted until a Corporal or higher has gone through at least 2 waves.

"If a given Corporal (or higher) has experienced two deaths while attempting to resolve a given situation using non-lethal rounds, loading lethal rounds is permitted."

MUCH clearer and less ambiguous.

[Dejay 796]

Failure of a non-lethal solution is defined by 2 failed attempts with a non-lethal option by the individual officer..

1. Lethal loading waves are not counted until a Corporal or higher has gone through at least 2 waves.

 

 

Straight from the handbook.

Just saying, I have seen higher-ups hear about a fed 3 waves in and come in and lethal right away..

[Ozzy Jones 362]

Just saying, I have seen higher-ups hear about a fed 3 waves in and come in and lethal right away..

99% sure that's not against the rules: if lethals are triggered for anyone, they're triggered for everyone corporal or higher.  Right?    

[Guest]

99% sure that's not against the rules: if lethals are triggered for anyone, they're triggered for everyone corporal or higher.  Right?    

 

Just saying, I have seen higher-ups hear about a fed 3 waves in and come in and lethal right away..

If there is a corporal(or higher) who has been through 2 waves of a fed already and are on their third wave, all higher ups who join can lethal. 

 

We leave lethals grey because situations where lethal force comes into play isn't always black and white. I may be on my first wave, and maybe all the cops but me are out the south wall of fed but I'm at the north wall and I get confronted by 3 guys, I might load lethals because in my immediate surroundings I'm outnumbered.

 

The real ambiguous part is the line that says Lethal force is authorized only when non-lethal force has failed or is inadequate to resolve the situation. 

 

We have very obvious 3rd wave rules here but there ARE times where lethals have been used outside of the normal context and rules. That's what this line is for.

Example: Me and 2 others were in a fuel truck once, and a ghosthawk was recently brought to heel. They were repairing it on the ground. At this time we proceeded to attack the downed Hawk at which point the gattling guns were opened up on us. There wasn't any real text or RP at all, but it was very clear that our intent was to assault the ghosthawk or at the very least, as APD you have to assume that is the case in that situation. So, we died and the fuel truck blew up(Cause its a fuel truck) but in this niche situation, the use of lethal force(Among other things, like using the hawk guns) was justified. We were armed men approaching the hawk and they had no other option to defend themselves.

 

We can't possibly cover EVERY situation out there. Corporals are there because we expect them to make the right calls in weird situations, that's why they get lethals. 

Edited September 25, 2015 by Guest

[Grandma Gary 10508]

If in doubt lethal, or find someone who can, or grab a civs gun.

Terrible advice. ^_^

[Sqwallify 127]

If in doubt lethal, or find someone who can, or grab a civs gun.

Terrible advice. ^_^

50 cals are the perfect weapons when you need lethals

[Snake 771]

TLDR: If you spawn in Kavala, instantly load lethals at all time. Hope this helped

No, real TLDR; Bunch of non senior APD retards on a post spreading more misinformation over and fucking over again because every retard thinks they know the rules better than the last.

 

Thank you McDili for coming into this fuckfest and answering the question

[TheColonel61 10]

No, real TLDR; Bunch of non senior APD retards on a post spreading more misinformation over and fucking over again because every retard thinks they know the rules better than the last.

 

Thank you McDili for coming into this fuckfest and answering the question

You mean we have the option to buy trace rounds? Shit waste of inventory space if you ask me!

PS: I joke, I joke!