Rule Change: Suivests

[The Sovereign 224]

There has been some... questionable interpretations of intent in the past regarding suivests that have led to players being banned.

Proposing a rule change, and it has some significant support from people already, and I want the servers opinion at large.

It's a simplifying rule.  Straight forward, one line.

"If an engaged player is legally killed with a suicide vest, all collateral damage, including vehicles, unengaged players, and players in restraints are legal crossfire"

This would exclude situations of clear collusion, such as engaging on a friend who runs at them.  

The current system has been abused by apd to a point where players get banned for killing their friends in restraints, and leaves apd able to shield themselves with players in restraints because if a hostile player with a suivest approaches said player before exploding, their intent is interpreted as to kill the player.  

This rule change would simplify suicide vests, which cost 600k, and shouldn't have to pay a butthurt ban tax.  Agree?

[ares 467]

The real question is why should i be banned if I blow up my own truck? sure i didn't kill anyone and it might have been lockpicked, but its my truck!

[Milo 1338]

Also make deadman switches work for tasers. A suicide vest and deadman switch is an extremely expensive one time use item that deserves a little extra love. In my opinion would be a perfect and reasonable nerf to the APD warrant system 

 

[Rufus 313]

You should also be able to use a vest for as long as your gang is in restraints. The amount of times the weeb cunts in APD have reported me for turning APD HQ into 1945 Hiroshima 6 minutes after we last engaged is not good.

 

If your boys are in restraints, initiation continues until they're jailed or released.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Rufus

[LULA 2022 - PT 13 552]

4 minutes ago, Rufus said:

You should also be able to use a vest for as long as your gang is in restraints. The amount of times the weeb cunts in APD have reported me for turning APD HQ into 1945 Hiroshima 6 minutes after we last engaged is not good.

 

If your boys are in restraints, initiation continues until they're jailed or released.

We can make that work, but only if you don't cry foul when you get insta-tazed the moment you come close to HQ or be a rules-lawyer.

Can't tell you the amount of civs who will RDM you because their buddy is in restraints and then cry foul and dispute over any technicality when they get reversed on and captured.

[Rufus 313]

Just now, LULA 2022 - PT 13 said:

We can make that work, but only if you don't cry foul when you get insta-tazed the moment you come close to HQ or be a rules-lawyer.

Can't tell you the amount of civs who will RDM you because their buddy is in restraints and then cry foul and dispute over any technicality when they get reversed on and captured.

Suck my cock pal 

[Boovin 397]

6 minutes ago, LULA 2022 - PT 13 said:

We can make that work, but only if you don't cry foul when you get insta-tazed the moment you come close to HQ or be a rules-lawyer.

Can't tell you the amount of civs who will RDM you because their buddy is in restraints and then cry foul and dispute over any technicality when they get reversed on and captured.

He was talking about the APD not the gay retard weeb club bud, not sure why you’re speaking on behalf of them  

[doubleueyeceekay 654]

I have always viewed it as a failure in APD tactics to let someone with a sui vest on blow themselves up killing someone in restraints.

This is almost exclusively the use of sui vests. There is so much that can be done to mitigate this happening. HQs are so insanely defendable and the sui vest replaces armour so sui vesting people in restraints should not be against the rules. The vest costs 600k and most people don't have them laying around for any APD situations. Civilians shouldn't be punished for legitimate strategies that abuse poor decision-making and strategy from the APD. 

1 hour ago, Milo said:

Also make deadman switches work for tasers. A suicide vest and deadman switch is an extremely expensive one time use item that deserves a little extra love. In my opinion would be a perfect and reasonable nerf to the APD warrant system 

Based opinion +rep Milo. 

44 minutes ago, LULA 2022 - PT 13 said:

We can make that work, but only if you don't cry foul when you get insta-tazed the moment you come close to HQ or be a rules-lawyer.

Can't tell you the amount of civs who will RDM you because their buddy is in restraints and then cry foul and dispute over any technicality when they get reversed on and captured.

"We can make that work"

Retired Staff tag. 

Don't think you can buddy.

[The Sovereign 224]

Apparently there's been other new rules added that almost nobody has been told about.  Apparently you're no longer allowed to ever suivest cops at all unless they engage on you first.  Incredibly stupid.  Also, apparently, if cops have someone in custody for 5 mins, their group is no longer engaged with apd and have to engage again.  APD sneaking a lot of ninja rules in to just ban people arbitrarily.   All this needs rolled back.  

Suivests cost 600k.  Cop kits are free.  There is no reason to be giving them t his much of an advantage and making them completely immune to suivests.  

Civs need to be getting angry about this type of secret rule additions tbh. 

[Tommyy 8]

Yur

[Rufus 313]

14 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Apparently there's been other new rules added that almost nobody has been told about.  Apparently you're no longer allowed to ever suivest cops at all unless they engage on you first.  Incredibly stupid.  Also, apparently, if cops have someone in custody for 5 mins, their group is no longer engaged with apd and have to engage again.  APD sneaking a lot of ninja rules in to just ban people arbitrarily.   All this needs rolled back.  

Suivests cost 600k.  Cop kits are free.  There is no reason to be giving them t his much of an advantage and making them completely immune to suivests.  

Civs need to be getting angry about this type of secret rule additions tbh. 

You only find out about these changes after you're banned, too.

 

[doubleueyeceekay 654]

2 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Apparently there's been other new rules added that almost nobody has been told about. 

Colour me surprised.

2 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Apparently you're no longer allowed to ever suivest cops at all unless they engage on you first. 

This is insane and directly contrary to the Altis Life rules.

"Suicide vests may be used at any time following normal roleplay rules".

Any admin that argues that I would cite that rule to them and ask when they became @ Grandma Gary  and able to circumvent server rules.

4 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Also, apparently, if cops have someone in custody for 5 mins, their group is no longer engaged with apd and have to engage again. 

@ Mighty  this was your work. I can see some of the consistency in this logic but I don't like it as it's not in the rules and it hard benefits the APD and vigis.

7 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

APD sneaking a lot of ninja rules in to just ban people arbitrarily.   All this needs rolled back.  

I think the issue here is that staff selection primarily comes from people being seniors in factions, and RnR rarely get any admins in (but weirdly, they seem to be the ones that are most level-headed, big up @ David Miller  and @ Marcus ) so you're primarily recruiting from senior APD who have a strong bias and vested interest into viewing things purely for the benefit of the APD, since they play that faction a lot (enough to get SAPD) and are most likely sycophants. I will say that @ Rexo  is probably the most level-headed staff member from the APD that is still in the APD and actively plays it.

12 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Suivests cost 600k.  Cop kits are free.  There is no reason to be giving them t his much of an advantage and making them completely immune to suivests.  

Excellent reasoning from The Sovereign again.

14 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Civs need to be getting angry about this type of secret rule additions tbh. 

Rule interpretations that end up being pervasive throughout staff but aren't actually written down are just plainly evil. The issue is that all changes have to go through those same staff members who are so staunchly pro-APD that they can just veto any reasonable changes like you've highlighted and the people that can overrule them never play enough and just see the consensus of the poisoned well of the APD staff members and align themselves with them. Plus the civilian mains that have the power to enact any kind of change in this manner aren't affected by the rules because if they do get banned they'll be unbanned within the hour or they don't engage with scat-style content.

[Millennium 6155]

38 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Apparently there's been other new rules added that almost nobody has been told about.  Apparently you're no longer allowed to ever suivest cops at all unless they engage on you first.  Incredibly stupid.  Also, apparently, if cops have someone in custody for 5 mins, their group is no longer engaged with apd and have to engage again.  APD sneaking a lot of ninja rules in to just ban people arbitrarily.   All this needs rolled back.  

Suivests cost 600k.  Cop kits are free.  There is no reason to be giving them t his much of an advantage and making them completely immune to suivests.  

Civs need to be getting angry about this type of secret rule additions tbh. 

That has always been a rule but its a bit incorrect what you are saying. I was literally banned for it in 2018 by CmdrRex.

The one time you CAN kill people in restraints is when you get engaged upon by the APD yourself. Then you can blow it and kill restrained people. However you are unable to run into an HQ says hands up or die and blow your suicide vest. 
 

As for the restraints rules that applies for everyone. Civs or APD. Restraining someone counts as the “last shot” of an engagement so you have 5 minutes from then to shoot them or you must reengage after that time is up. Its literally the same  concept of “I shot at him last 1 minute ago so you go 4 minutes of engagement left”.

[The Sovereign 224]

2 minutes ago, Millennium said:

The one time you CAN kill people in restraints is when you get engaged upon by the APD yourself. Then you can blow it and kill restrained people. However you are unable to run into an HQ says hands up or die and blow your suicide vest. 

If I'm mistaken about this, that would be great.  But the multiple staff who have explained it to me, both did not explain it like that, just that you can't use it at all unless engaged on.  And when I asked if my statement is how it is, nothing was contested.  I hope your right because that would at least make sense on some level and not be this incredibly stupid.

[Millennium 6155]

My issue with suicide vest and killing people in restraits is its too easy to kill them with it. People with a high bounty that get captured by the APD or Vigi will easily just get saved vy a friend who buys a sui vest and blows it up near them. You could parachute into an HQ from high up and the APD could have no clue.

2 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

If I'm mistaken about this, that would be great.  But the multiple staff who have explained it to me, both did not explain it like that, just that you can't use it at all unless engaged on.  And when I asked if my statement is how it is, nothing was contested.  I hope your right because that would at least make sense on some level and not be this incredibly stupid.

Yeah no that definitely is how it is. If you run in an HQ and the APD decide to be stupid enough to engage you while you have a sui vest on that is fair game to blow it. That is the one time you can kill people in restraints with a sui vest.

[Milo 1338]

In my opinion the rules regarding suicide vests just need to be entirely reworked. @ Millennium  is correct that it is extremely easy to walk into an HQ and kill restrained players. However I believe @ The Sovereign  is onto something in simplifing this. Suicide vests should really be able to be used in any situation where you are actively engaged. As long are you are intending to strike an enemy, and not just people in restraints; anything else should be deemed crossfire per the existing RDM/cross fire provisions in the Altis Life rules. 

If there needs to be further balance then I think it is worth evaluating whether players should be able to be shot on sight for possessing a suivest or deadman switch but I don't think there is any harm in simplifying rules it sounds like a lot of people have been banned for misunderstanding. That's just my take though

[The Sovereign 224]

FREE THE SUIVEST AND MAKE ALLAH AKBAR VALID ROLEPLAY!


EVERY PERSON SAYS THIS IS THE ONLY REASON ASYLUM IS BETER THAN OLYMPUS SO WHY NOT CHANGE THAT?

[Marcus 1416]

I was explaining the suivest thing the same way I said that the APD needs to engage on you with the suivest in order to blow it up for it to be valid. 

[Rufus 313]

This thread is now an APD forum tag free zone 

[Marcus 1416]

With restrained people with them

 

[Boovin 397]

3 minutes ago, Rufus said:

This thread is now an APD forum tag free zone 

Haha cunts  

[Element_ 705]

Simply make sui vest wearers KOS regardless of faction, I would be down for that. 


 Misuse of suicide vests to kill restrained players or destroy vehicles for no reason may still result in administrative action. 

OMG THE RULE THATS BEEN STRETCHED 

49 minutes ago, Millennium said:

That has always been a rule but its a bit incorrect what you are saying. I was literally banned for it in 2018 by CmdrRex.

The one time you CAN kill people in restraints is when you get engaged upon by the APD yourself. Then you can blow it and kill restrained people. However you are unable to run into an HQ says hands up or die and blow your suicide vest. 
 

As for the restraints rules that applies for everyone. Civs or APD. Restraining someone counts as the “last shot” of an engagement so you have 5 minutes from then to shoot them or you must reengage after that time is up. Its literally the same  concept of “I shot at him last 1 minute ago so you go 4 minutes of engagement left”.

^^^^^^^^^

[-dante- 5769]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

Also, apparently, if cops have someone in custody for 5 mins, their group is no longer engaged with apd and have to engage again.

This has been a thing forever. This isn’t new. The hostile action (restraining them) starts the engagement timer. Been enforced that way even when I was a baby mod in 2017. There have been staff along the way that thought otherwise (not saying the argument one way or the other is wrong here) but that’s the way it’s been enforced for the most part for years. 

[The Sovereign 224]

Suivests are better without staff injecting their interpretation of intent onto the matter.  Just needless bureaucracy, meaningless bans, and an absolute aversion to the money sink doctrine staff are always calling for.   

[billdroid 1012]

2 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

 Civs need to be getting angry about this type of secret rule additions tbh. 

Yeah because the cops make the rules