The most retarded call staff have ever made on this server pt 2

[Community Director Sov 40]

2 hours ago, Diamond said:

Fyi, my most time played is on civ and was a skat council member. The rant is pretty silly

Diamond, you're the exception to most rules.  

[Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup 2948]

So, this wasn’t a @ -Shawn-  only decision. This was an all staff discussion. We realized that the fact that you can blow up a shed and not consider it a hostile action towards you was a bit silly. 
 

We want to (and will be adjusting the rules to reflect as such) make this an official hostile action but it won’t be as simple as “I thought he was going to blow up my shed so I blasted him without proper engagement”. We will make sure that player who is blowing up the shed can be seen actually placing a bomb on the shed itself or if they rammed a vehicle causing the shed to blow up etc. 
 

So don’t worry. People will still have to engage in most situations. We wanted to be more open to these kind of scenarios and discussed it for a good while and all came to a consensus. 
 

Some rules need to be adjusted to get with the times and just because a rule was good years ago, doesn’t mean it’s good now. 
 

@ Community Director Sov

[Community Director Sov 40]

1 minute ago, Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup said:

So, this wasn’t a @ -Shawn-  only decision. This was an all staff discussion. We realized that the fact that you can blow up a shed and not consider it a hostile action towards you was a bit iffy. 
 

We want to (and will be adjusting the rules to reflect as such) make this an official hostile action but it won’t be as simple as “I thought he was going to blow up my shed so I blasted him without proper engagement”. We will make sure that player who is blowing up the shed can be seen actually placing a bomb on the shed itself or if they rammed a vehicle causing the shed to blow up etc. 
 

So don’t worry. People will still have to engage in most situations. We wanted to be more open to these kind of scenario and discussed it for a good while and all came to a consensus. 

It's impossible to enforce properly.  That's the problem.  It's not the action of it... it's the fact that players can't confirm ownership so it shouldn't be a rule.  I can almost 100% guarantee by the time the 5th ticket hits from an rdm and players needing to confirm house ownership staff are going to get lazy and not confirm that ownership at the actual time.  I've seen at least  20 tickets where staff couldn't even be bothered to glance at a dispute, and we have to trust staff are going to actually check ownership of a house at the specific time and day of the rdm.

[Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup 2948]

2 minutes ago, Community Director Sov said:

It's impossible to enforce properly.  That's the problem.  It's not the action of it... it's the fact that players can't confirm ownership so it shouldn't be a rule.  I can almost 100% guarantee by the time the 5th ticket hits from an rdm and players needing to confirm house ownership staff are going to get lazy and not confirm that ownership at the actual time.  I've seen at least  20 tickets where staff couldn't even be bothered to glance at a dispute, and we have to trust staff are going to actually check ownership of a house at the specific time and day of the rdm.

I get what you are saying. All of these factors will be taken into consideration. Seems like the kind of rule break that will require log digging. It can be done. 

[Community Director Sov 40]

4 minutes ago, Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup said:

So, this wasn’t a @ -Shawn-  only decision. This was an all staff discussion. We realized that the fact that you can blow up a shed and not consider it a hostile action towards you was a bit silly. 
 

We want to (and will be adjusting the rules to reflect as such) make this an official hostile action but it won’t be as simple as “I thought he was going to blow up my shed so I blasted him without proper engagement”. We will make sure that player who is blowing up the shed can be seen actually placing a bomb on the shed itself or if they rammed a vehicle causing the shed to blow up etc. 
 

So don’t worry. People will still have to engage in most situations. We wanted to be more open to these kind of scenarios and discussed it for a good while and all came to a consensus. 
 

Some rules need to be adjusted to get with the times and just because a rule was good years ago, doesn’t mean it’s good now. 
 

@ Community Director Sov

I have no issues with rule changes when they are done properly and not done after a player has broken a rule to shield that player from not taking any consequences.  Should have been done properly, with an announcement, and that player STILL SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED BECAUSE THEY BROKE A RULE. 

I have another ticket about to go in on the same gang.  RDM'ed me AGAIN, this time I was in a stolen vehicle that didn't belong to the player that killed me and I can't help but get this unnerving feeling that somehow we're going to change that rule to let them get away with rdming again.  

And also, I take huge issue with the mechanics of how this works out and all my citing of the lack of staff experience is due to players having no way to confirm ownership of the building, while also feeling players shouldn't be able to confirm ownership of a building.  

Take the ticket that started all of t his.  I asked multiple times whether the guy who killed me was even in AOS at the time and have gotten no confirmation, and get the strong impression nobody has even bothered looking into it. There's a good chance he was just a group member at the time he killed me, and that's the very first ticket relating to this rule change and staff already not doing their due diligence to confirm. 

He was in a different group, that merged into AOS group, and was a r0 two days later.   

And if it's like the vehicle rules, then it has to be the owner, not a keyholder.   So I get killed guy one who has keys to his friends house from (gangbangers), and his friend transfers him ownership before ticket is done, I'm almost 100% sure staff aren't checking every time, and if they do I'm almost 100% sure it will be after more than a month like these tickets usually go on for.  This rule is creating a level of work staff have already demonstrated an unwillingness to do on a regular basis... those same staff pushing for this change.

It's frustrating hearing staff say "yeah it's way more work but we got this, no problem" while already not even doing their due diligence on the very first ticket that caused them to change the rule.  We are already having problems with them not confirming properly. 

[Milo 697]

4 minutes ago, Community Director Sov said:

It's impossible to enforce properly.  That's the problem.  It's not the action of it... it's the fact that players can't confirm ownership so it shouldn't be a rule.  I can almost 100% guarantee by the time the 5th ticket hits from an rdm and players needing to confirm house ownership staff are going to get lazy and not confirm that ownership at the actual time.  I've seen at least  20 tickets where staff couldn't even be bothered to glance at a dispute, and we have to trust staff are going to actually check ownership of a house at the specific time and day of the rdm.

I will say on the topic of ownership since this was mentioned once or twice between our internal discussion as well, here is my current perspective:

if a player is blowing up a gang shed, it is very likely they are certain as they would not want to waste the explosives. For the player killing them, that would be easily verifiable to them because they would have keys and see it on the map. If the player who blew it up and was killed had suspicions that the player was not in possesion of keys to that shed, they could submit a report at their own prerogative where we would be able to pull that data and determine the outcome from there.

I don't think the ownership thing is an issue although (super hot take) I've never been opposed to allowing civs to check the ownership of a house. If cops can do it, I don't see any reason why civs should be limited in this capacity. Should they be able to walk up and check the owner of every house and write it down? No, because cops generally have not done that. With a really large cooldown timer or something though I don't think this would be a bad addition. Also not sure it is entirely necessary but don't think it could really hurt as far as things go.

[Xlax 2542]

lol

[Community Director Sov 40]

Just now, Milo said:

I will say on the topic of ownership since this was mentioned once or twice between our internal discussion as well, here is my current perspective:

if a player is blowing up a gang shed, it is very likely they are certain as they would not want to waste the explosives. For the player killing them, that would be easily verifiable to them because they would have keys and see it on the map. If the player who blew it up and was killed had suspicions that the player was not in possesion of keys to that shed, they could submit a report at their own prerogative where we would be able to pull that data and determine the outcome from there.

I don't think the ownership thing is an issue although (super hot take) I've never been opposed to allowing civs to check the ownership of a house. If cops can do it, I don't see any reason why civs should be limited in this capacity. Should they be able to walk up and check the owner of every house and write it down? No, because cops generally have not done that. With a really large cooldown timer or something though I don't think this would be a bad addition. Also not sure it is entirely necessary but don't think it could really hurt as far as things go.

Ok.  I have a ticket I'm about to fill out from an incident yesterday and it's going to demonstrate perfectly why it works for vehicles and not buildings.  

It took ONE DAY OF NOT EVEN TRYING to get evidence of them trying to scam people into getting rdm'ed. 

[KermitZooicide 230]

[Community Director Sov 40]

AND THE ONLY REASON IT'S A VALID TICKET is because I checked registration on the vehicle.  Had I not, staff would have not bothered and just declined the ticket.  

Just now, KermitZooicide said:

No no sweety I'm sorry I yelled.   @ Mako   Please add a fidget spinner to the moderator panel ty.  

[Community Director Sov 40]

This is why it doesn't work.  This is why what you're doing is a stupid idea.  1 hour of playtime since I made this ticket, and without even trying I'm able to demonstrate how common this situation is and how players cannot be trusted as a source of who owns a building.  They said it was Kevin's truck, the guy who killed me, and I checked registration on video and it was not.  Told them I checked registration and they called me a liar.  

ONE HOUR OF PLAYTIME.  THATS ALL IT TOOK SINCE I MADE THIS POST.  ONE HOUR AND I WAS IN THIS SAME EXACT SITUATION WITH A VEHICLE AND WAS ONLY SAVED WITH PROOF BECAUSE I COULD CHECK REGISTRATION.  And every single time I'm in this situation with a house I'm supposed to take their word for it or waste a half hour uploading to confirm the right person killed me, to which staff don't even actually check.  If I didn't check registration in this video, staff would just say he owned it and close the ticket.    Now you want to fuck over players with this same laziness based situations with buildings.  It's absurd.  

Unrestrained at 4:22
Check vehicle registration:  AOS GOLLD at 5:15
Killed at 6:43 (no other player fired shots at all)

@ David Miller  @ Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup  (because youre smart enough you might grasp this unlike some) @ Noble  @ Masonn   @ Grandma Gary

Please try to understand what I'm saying.  1 hour and it's already an relevant issue.   That's all it took, and I wasn't even trying.

You're not actually changing the rules, you've just either assigned yourselves and a bunch of innocent players countless hours of needless work, and/or giving a ton of retards a license to rdm forever.  



@ -Shawn-  @ Marcus   I know you've entrenched yourself in your position so much that logic, no matter how in your face it is isn't going to make you understand.  You're emotionally invested in being right no matter what.    But you aren't right.   All you're doing is punishing rdm victims. 

[-Shawn- 4709]

@ Marcus  did you know we alone have collaborated (haven’t spoken to you in teamspeak in prob a month) and are the sole reasons that all of this is happening? We have influenced all of staff with our (un?)worthy opinions. Do you think it’s our anime pfp?

[Community Director Sov 40]

16 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

@ Marcus  did you know we alone have collaborated (haven’t spoken to you in teamspeak in prob a month) and are the sole reasons that all of this is happening? We have influenced all of staff with our (un?)worthy opinions. Do you think it’s our anime pfp?

It's not exactly like it's a reach and I never claimed that.  You two have just been the most vocal about it.  Don't cry anime pfp, you'll get boogies on your fursuit.

[Marcus 1143]

51 minutes ago, Community Director Sov said:

This is why it doesn't work.  This is why what you're doing is a stupid idea.  1 hour of playtime since I made this ticket, and without even trying I'm able to demonstrate how common this situation is and how players cannot be trusted as a source of who owns a building.  They said it was Kevin's truck, the guy who killed me, and I checked registration on video and it was not.  Told them I checked registration and they called me a liar.  

ONE HOUR OF PLAYTIME.  THATS ALL IT TOOK SINCE I MADE THIS POST.  ONE HOUR AND I WAS IN THIS SAME EXACT SITUATION WITH A VEHICLE AND WAS ONLY SAVED WITH PROOF BECAUSE I COULD CHECK REGISTRATION.  And every single time I'm in this situation with a house I'm supposed to take their word for it or waste a half hour uploading to confirm the right person killed me, to which staff don't even actually check.  If I didn't check registration in this video, staff would just say he owned it and close the ticket.    Now you want to fuck over players with this same laziness based situations with buildings.  It's absurd.  

Unrestrained at 4:22
Check vehicle registration:  AOS GOLLD at 5:15
Killed at 6:43 (no other player fired shots at all)

@ David Miller  @ Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup  (because youre smart enough you might grasp this unlike some) @ Noble  @ Masonn   @ Grandma Gary

Please try to understand what I'm saying.  1 hour and it's already an relevant issue.   That's all it took, and I wasn't even trying.

You're not actually changing the rules, you've just either assigned yourselves and a bunch of innocent players countless hours of needless work, and/or giving a ton of retards a license to rdm forever.  



@ -Shawn-  @ Marcus   I know you've entrenched yourself in your position so much that logic, no matter how in your face it is isn't going to make you understand.  You're emotionally invested in being right no matter what.    But you aren't right.   All you're doing is punishing rdm victims. 

This is RDM.  AOS Gold would have needed to shoot at you first before the rest of his gang was able to fire on you.

[-Shawn- 4709]

3 minutes ago, Community Director Sov said:

It's not exactly like it's a reach and I never claimed that.  You two have just been the most vocal about it.  Don't cry anime pfp, you'll get boogies on your fursuit.

[Marcus 1143]

21 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

@ Marcus  did you know we alone have collaborated (haven’t spoken to you in teamspeak in prob a month) and are the sole reasons that all of this is happening? We have influenced all of staff with our (un?)worthy opinions. Do you think it’s our anime pfp?

idk man just trying to help people understand the rules better but what do I know I'm just a medic.

[Community Director Sov 40]

Just now, Marcus said:

This is RDM.  AOS Gold would have needed to shoot at you first before the rest of his gang was able to fire on you.

Obviously, that isn't the point.  The only way I could prove it was by checking registration, which you want to put players in that same situation but with houses.  If I didn't check registration I would have had to take their word for it.  If I didn't and they just claimed it was kevins, then I would probably not even bother uploading because it would be a waste of time if they're right, and a waste of staff's times to check logs and review. 

Try to get what I'm saying.  It isn't about the rule itself, I have no problem with the rule technically, just that the burden of proof is on the rdm victim too hard to trust the rdmer that it wasn't rdm, to trust the staff is going to do their job fully ever time, and even if all is done correctly, a huge waste of time for ever instance that it is legitimate. 

Just now, Marcus said:

idk man just trying to help people understand the rules better but what do I know I'm just a medic.

I'm trying to help you understand the reality of civ gameplay and why that isn't a viable option.  That's all. You've come out in support of the furry purge and for that I respect you more than @ -Shawn-  who is a fursuit sympathizer at best, full furry at worst.   But this just doesn't work.  It's an unfair amount of work to players who are victims of rdm to prove it, and are expected to waste an insane amount of time verifying.  

[Marcus 1143]

2 minutes ago, Community Director Sov said:

Obviously, that isn't the point.  The only way I could prove it was by checking registration, which you want to put players in that same situation but with houses.  If I didn't check registration I would have had to take their word for it.  If I didn't and they just claimed it was kevins, then I would probably not even bother uploading because it would be a waste of time if they're right, and a waste of staff's times to check logs and review. 

Try to get what I'm saying.  It isn't about the rule itself, I have no problem with the rule technically, just that the burden of proof is on the rdm victim too hard to trust the rdmer that it wasn't rdm, to trust the staff is going to do their job fully ever time, and even if all is done correctly, a huge waste of time for ever instance that it is legitimate. 

Then check the reg because it is a rule that the owner of the vehicle can shoot you if you stole their vehicle. If you want to be sure check the reg that is why you have the ability to do so.

[Community Director Sov 40]

Just now, Marcus said:

Then check the reg because it is a rule that the owner of the vehicle can shoot you if you stole their vehicle. If you want to be sure check the reg that is why you have the ability to do so.

???  You can't do that for houses.  Not sure how I'm being unclear on this.  You want to put players in the same exact situation with houses where they can't check registration and just have to trust or waste an inordinate amount of time uploading clip after clip after clip because you told people they can rdm people for planting bombs near their houses.  I feel like you're just intentionally dodging my point to troll me.

[Marcus 1143]

Just now, Community Director Sov said:

???  You can't do that for houses.  Not sure how I'm being unclear on this.  You want to put players in the same exact situation with houses where they can't check registration and just have to trust or waste an inordinate amount of time uploading clip after clip after clip because you told people they can rdm people for planting bombs near their houses.  I feel like you're just intentionally dodging my point to troll me.

No I'm not but if you are going to go blow up someone's house 9/10 you know whose house you are blowing up. Civs don't need to have the check keys on houses as it will be abused, and petty people will legit sit in a town checking all the keys and blow up people's houses because they can.

[Community Director Sov 40]

1 minute ago, Marcus said:

No I'm not but if you are going to go blow up someone's house 9/10 you know whose house you are blowing up. Civs don't need to have the check keys on houses as it will be abused, and petty people will legit sit in a town checking all the keys and blow up people's houses because they can.

No not really.  I'm not trying to insult you with this 'career medic' stuff but there is some serious validity to it.  You haven't experienced the wide variety of situations that are far more common than you realize. 

People keyshare all the time.  Just because you see someone accessing a house doesn't mean it's theirs. 

I blow up houses all the time that 2-3 gang members access and I have no idea who owns it.  That's extremely common.

[Marcus 1143]

1 minute ago, Community Director Sov said:

No not really.  I'm not trying to insult you with this 'career medic' stuff but there is some serious validity to it.  You haven't experienced the wide variety of situations that are far more common than you realize. 

People keyshare all the time.  Just because you see someone accessing a house doesn't mean it's theirs. 

Still lies on the civ if you suspect it report it then it will get handled from there. Currently, in the rules lockpicking/boltcutting are hostile actions so if you think the wrong person killed you then you would report them either way.  Don't need 10,000 hours on civ to know that. Less than 5% of the players on the server are going out their way to blow up peoples houses and think its ok to just remove their access to the house or shed till restart and then they also think that if they were caught and killed doing it that it should be RDM and that is stupid.  

[Community Director Sov 40]

5 minutes ago, Marcus said:

Still lies on the civ if you suspect it report it then it will get handled from there. Currently, in the rules lockpicking/boltcutting are hostile actions so if you think the wrong person killed you then you would report them either way.  Don't need 10,000 hours on civ to know that. Less than 5% of the players on the server are going out their way to blow up peoples houses and think its ok to just remove their access to the house or shed till restart and then they also think that if they were caught and killed doing it that it should be RDM and that is stupid.  

I actually honestly see your point, but the counter is just stronger.  Enforcing it is so aids that it's just not viable or practical to enforce the rules of allowing rdming in those situations.

And it puts an unfair amount of burden and time cost on the player who is potentially being rdm'ed to have to verify over and over again.  Can you try to see where I'm coming from and not just dismiss the value of players in my positions time and effort that easily?

It's saying "hey I see you're spending a large amount of money to do this, but now you have to spend hours upon hours uploading videos and filing tickets forever because some guy with a pdub claimed he owned a house across the street from your bomb and ended your 1 million dollar kit."  It's an absolutely unnecessary 'fuck you' to players who spend money on explosives.  

[Grandma Gary 10221]

5 hours ago, XnavrasX said:

yo, who unperm'd this kid? They need to be removed from staff because clearly they have severe down syndrome.

Whoa there medics can't go full toxic, you guys are the last bastion of civility left.

Also it was @ -Shawn-

[Blitzking 18]

2 hours ago, Community Director Sov said:

 

He was in a different group, that merged into AOS group, and was a r0 two days later.   
 

The dude that killed you was Inder. He has been in AoS since returning to the server.