APD Poll (Closed). Discussion about APD player bans

[-Shawn- 4517]

The Poll has served its purpose, which was just to see the accuracy of a point made by Rexo.

Staff have heard your concerns and are currently discussing both sides of the argument in relation to APD server rule breaks being handled by more than just sAPD Admins.

 

Your opinions here matter, so please feel free to reply with your own points for either side. We want to make sure everyone is getting fair treatment across the board. 

(please do not vote if you are a career civ or havent been cop in a long time)

[Snake 745]

Cops get ripped too easily, they should just take server bans unless its ridiculous

[SheriffJohnBeard 185]

I always assumed that if you broke a SERVER rule while on cop, you would get banned accordingly. And that you'd get some type of "strike" on your APD record. After X amount of strikes in a given period, you'd be removed and blacklisted.

If you broke APD rules, then you wouldn't get banned, but you would accumulate "strikes", and depending on severity, you could be immediately removed and blacklisted. There should be exceptions though for breaking certain APD rules that would justify a server ban; such as giving away APD equipment to friends/associates.

I've felt this 2 part system has been fair.

 

[-Shawn- 4517]

9 minutes ago, SheriffJohnBeard said:

I always assumed that if you broke a SERVER rule while on cop, you would get banned accordingly. And that you'd get some type of "strike" on your APD record.

It was like that once before, but its a bit different now.

[Mighty 1396]

9 minutes ago, SheriffJohnBeard said:

I always assumed that if you broke a SERVER rule while on cop, you would get banned accordingly. And that you'd get some type of "strike" on your APD record. After X amount of strikes in a given period, you'd be removed and blacklisted.

If you broke APD rules, then you wouldn't get banned, but you would accumulate "strikes", and depending on severity, you could be immediately removed and blacklisted. There should be exceptions though for breaking certain APD rules that would justify a server ban; such as giving away APD equipment to friends/associates.

I've felt this 2 part system has been fair.

 

In theory this is how it should be. In reality, the apd member almost never gets punished on the staff side, which is unfair to civs.

[Billeh 802]

11 minutes ago, SheriffJohnBeard said:

I always assumed that if you broke a SERVER rule while on cop, you would get banned accordingly. And that you'd get some type of "strike" on your APD record. After X amount of strikes in a given period, you'd be removed and blacklisted.

If you broke APD rules, then you wouldn't get banned, but you would accumulate "strikes", and depending on severity, you could be immediately removed and blacklisted. There should be exceptions though for breaking certain APD rules that would justify a server ban; such as giving away APD equipment to friends/associates.

I've felt this 2 part system has been fair.

 

Once it was like that, back in 2017/18 i got yeeted into pharma by another officer resulting in a ban as well as a perm note on my apd side. Now when im playing civ i can get vdm'd in an orca full kids with tazer kits and receive 0 comp and the player not being punished ban wise

[xsmitherz 290]

neither

[Hazardous 453]

ill start the note, you add the context 

[-Shawn- 4517]

3 minutes ago, xsmitherz said:

neither

i can fix one of em for ya >:D

 

pull out an use your ghawk or die (ban)

[xsmitherz 290]

So under the mentality of take the ban and not be put on the sheets... if a PO was to combat log he wouldn't be demoted lets say, he would just receive a ban and it wouldn't affect their progression in the APD at all?

[billdroid 792]

if ur on cop and u break any rule that is reported/you get banned for, you should get a note

[bigSMOKE 924]

23 minutes ago, xsmitherz said:

So under the mentality of take the ban and not be put on the sheets... if a PO was to combat log he wouldn't be demoted lets say, he would just receive a ban and it wouldn't affect their progression in the APD at all?

feel as if it should vary per ban type, combat log is a bit more intentional than most bans. I once warning shorted a heli that was hovering hq, on my screen he didn’t move for over 5 seconds after so i shot him down. However, he had video of his game freezing while trying to leave so he kept lagging backwards and i was demoted for it 

[-Shawn- 4517]

For transparency, this is how it works:

For APD related matters - All server rule and APD handbooks currently go to APD IA where an sAPD admin will handle the ticket. Non sAPD do not handle these reports in any way shape or form. 

For APD reports being a server rule - the APD punishment is based on merit, recent ban history, and the weight of what an APD note means on their names in regards to promotions and whatnot.  Which so far in this poll, is proving @ Rexo 's point that APD members think that notes are worse than being banned.

 

The counter argument made my several of you has been that non sAPD admins should handle these tickets to get away from bias reports and for fairness across the board. 

I wont get into each staff members' opinions because that is their right to give it to you if they would like. For me, I think transparency is one of the most important things Faction leaders and staff should present. I believe Admins that are not sAPD should have the right to handle these reports and then let sAPD handle the APD punishment. Rexo has made many great points to counter that, but that is where I am at. I think being consistent with all bans is most important. Theres more staff related opinion about processes I dont want to disclose but thats the general gist of it. Consistency, Fairness, and Transparency. That is what I want and what I believe is fair to our commumity. 

[nicole 607]

If you break a server rule on cop you CAN be banned but you will ALWAYS get a permenant note, I don't get what this poll is doing?

[-Shawn- 4517]

2 minutes ago, nicole said:

If you break a server rule on cop you CAN be banned but you will ALWAYS get a permenant note, I don't get what this poll is doing?

The poll was in reference to one of Rexos points he was making in why apd members may not face a ban when a civ would. I was just seeing how accurate his statement was. 

[nicole 607]

Notes aren't always bad either; most of them these days say "doesn't effect promotion, etc."

[-Shawn- 4517]

1 minute ago, nicole said:

Notes aren't always bad either; most of them these days say "doesn't effect promotion, etc."

The reason it was asked was because Rexo was mentioning how much weight it would be for someone in the apd which could mean that it balances out a bit if they’ve been good prior without recent issues, rather than be banned. My point is that any rule a civ can be banned for, an apd member should also be and shouldn’t just be satisfied by a note. A lot more side bars that go along with that but we talked nonstop for a while. I ain’t typing all that lol

[ZimZim 236]

Cops should be held to a higher standard... emphasis on SHOULD. I think they should catch a ban AND a note if its bad. Something small... just treat it like a normal civ imo but if its medium/bad then should get a note/strike. 

I do see a lot of cops getting away with shit depending on who they are or who they are playing with

[Kamikaze 1172]

I'm assuming it currently is how it was when I was still sAPD, where they receive a ban and note depending on the severity of the rule break (w/ the exception of the rules where its automatic demotion.) When I was PO/Corporal I would much rather take a ban w/o a note due to the note highly slowing down your progression within the APD and pretty much preventing a promotion for 2-3 months. 

[nicole 607]

6 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

The poll was in reference to one of Rexos points he was making in why apd members may not face a ban when a civ would. I was just seeing how accurate his statement was. 

I am not an Administrative staff member, but all my time in Senior APD, rarely do cops get banned for breaking server rules while on cop, mainly because they compensate heavily, learn from their mistakes, and a speaking to and light warning suffices, and because they care a little bit more. What you're proposing will probably result in a ban 80% of the time and will always result in a note being made on our end. Our noting system will not change; this proposal will only hurt the population more.

[-Shawn- 4517]

3 minutes ago, nicole said:

I am not an Administrative staff member, but all my time in Senior APD, rarely do cops get banned for breaking server rules while on cop, mainly because they compensate heavily, learn from their mistakes, and a speaking to and light warning suffices, and because they care a little bit more. What you're proposing will probably result in a ban 80% of the time and will always result in a note being made on our end. Our noting system will not change; this proposal will only hurt the population more.

If they compensate heavily, no regular admin would ban them either 90% of the time. That’s the same case for civs as well. If you own up and fix the issue, you won’t get banned generally. That’s not really what would change or what the target issue is. The issue is that for example a Civ intentionally slams into another car and kills them, unless they’re brand new it is more times than not a ban and then it can be reduced after it’s talked about but now it’s on record and counts towards future bans. If an apd member does the exact same thing while playing cop, they shouldn’t be warned and have no record of rule breaking. We did it that way for many years and it never caused any issues. 
 

I’ve been on that side of the board. And when I was admins could ban an apd member if they broke rules. Then it would be sent to seniors and we’d handle the cop side of things. If seniors still want to only warn despite the ban - that’s obv fine and not anything near what I’d want to even discuss. It’s sAPD’s faction. How discipline on the cop side of things is handed out is completely your guys’ right. But they shouldn’t not get a ban for rule breaks just because they can get noted. 

[nicole 607]

For example, if a cop VDMs someone while on cop, they get reported, they get banned, and now they are dewhitelisted because they need to be disciplined on the APD side, so they have to wait for the staff member who banned them to respond to a ban appeal, and now they have to wait for a senior APD member to come talk to them, and they will end up with a note, a ban, and a headache because they have to wait for two different people in two different roles to handle their punishment. How it works now is if a cop VDMs someone while on cop, they get reported, they get See SAPD from a senior APD member who is a staff member, they wait to talk to that one person, don't get banned, and walk away with a note that most likely will not affect their chances of progression. APD and civilians can't be compared. APD members are so easily accessible for a plethora of reasons, while civilians can only be accessed via a ticket (most likely a ban appeal).

[DopeDealerFelipe 44]

Don't most People wait months upon months to even get a chance at corp?now im not aiming for corp hell im a shitty cop myself  but i've heard some scary things about the wait it being sometimes 5+Months,specifing on a note that it shouldn't affect your promotion chances sounds like BS.

2 hours ago, nicole said:

Notes aren't always bad either; most of them these days say "doesn't effect promotion, etc."

Now i don't know how the promotion process is done and how candidates are chosen and i might be completely wrong here but there has to be some sort of Quota for how many corps there can be at any given time no?Given the amount of Po's to corp ratio promotions should be somewhat rare. . .

Surely being presented with a file of two outstanding officers  in a tie breaker one with a permanent note on his file regardless of it saying it shouldn't affect his chances wouldn't get picked over another with a perfect record right?No matter how you look at it favoring the player with a clean record means saying the note does have an effect but favoring the player with the note would also be kinda unfair for the guy without a note. 

As for the topic of the question i'd swallow a ban and keep a clean file over getting a permanent note because at the end of the day we all subcontiously like clean and neat things. . .a note means we've made a mistake and regardless of that mistake it will follow us forever,considering that Corporal is only the first loop you have to jump through and each loop gets smaller and smaller no one in thier right mind would take a note with no punishment over a few days ban.

[katheeri 135]

just dont break rules?

[Evannnnn 218]

Notes & bans should both be applied, obviously if the rule break was very minor/not advantageous i think just a talking to is fine along with the ban however allowing people to not compensate, break APD handbook and then take a ban for it just allows shitty cops & players to achieve higher progression over people who are doing the right thing