The State of Federal Events, As Seen From a Jr. APD Member

[monster 5668]

7 minutes ago, Brandyn said:

Also, its pretty much a guaranteed win for Civs to just take their fight to gangbase and have someone drop them 14 titans and missiles and they can just respawn there 30 seconds later and immediately start shooting missiles at incoming waves. The location of Gangbase is Busted and a easily defendable place to fight. Ground units can only push in from one way making our front glass clearly visible and by the time we can even reach the compound we will already be ripped. Once you guys finish off an entire wave of the APD Civ's can just respawn there quicker than the APD can respond due to us following Wave rule. 

Congrats you've basically just described what it's like to push a cop hq

[Brandyn 434]

Just now, monster said:

Congrats you've basically just described what it's like to push a cop hq

Purchase a HQ Takeover terminal and you wont have that issue of us respawning there that quickly. If thats the argument then lets add a gang base takeover terminal for cops to use at gangbase during federal events.

[SPBojo 6862]

1 minute ago, Brandyn said:

Purchase a HQ Takeover terminal and you wont have that issue of us respawning there that quickly. If thats the argument then lets add a gang base takeover terminal for cops to use at gangbase during federal events.

Cops have x amount of spawn locations, civs have 1 spawn location but sure, if you really thing that will work, go for it

[Brandyn 434]

1 minute ago, SPBojo said:

Cops have x amount of spawn locations, civs have 1 spawn location but sure, if you really thing that will work, go for it

I mean I guess your right. It would be near impossible to plant a takeover terminal at gangbase without dying on your way there to begin with.

[nicole 841]

soon

[billdroid 927]

10 minutes ago, ben- said:

even if this is the case I can guarantee you they will pull the same amount of armour they have been if we were to be a all mk1 tier 4 and fatigues on. I mean you can believe what you want but two different people (one SAPD one retired, you can go figure who) have told Aegis they want to make it impossible to win regardless so who knows? I dont know why this thread is still going as its the same back and forth argument, civs will be biased to themselves and cops will be biased to themselves with no real structure to an argument from both sides. There needs to be an actual meeting about this and not some shitty ego forum thread

 

how can u expect a senior to not want to win when you have an 80 percent win rate and shit talk them. id be the same way

[ben- 578]

Just now, billdroid said:

how can u expect a senior to not want to win when you have an 80 percent win rate and shit talk them. id be the same way

I never said I dont expect seniors to want to win, as I have said in my replies, this argument is going nowhere, ofc civs will be salty when we lose and of course cops are going to be salty. I am not suggesting that you cant try and win at all. But pulling some of the shit thats happening not including the fact most of the armour and ghawks are admin spawned money (casino i swear) 

As I said, there is bias on both sides, ofc I am gonna be upset if I lose and so are cops going to be when they lose, there is issues on both sides here and this thread wont do shit about it because its a ego/bias war where we cant even discuss each issue because its the same point brought up 10000x by different people leading to the same outcome of the argument

[Kaka 16]

I agree I am debating if I even want to do my hours or not. I can't blame the people doing the events for playing to win ofc, but the repeated events over and over get to you sometimes. 

 

Great post

[Hazardous 534]

lets not forget to mention how when we got our 20 cop limit we had civ groups with over 20 civs doing a BW together in the same group 

 

& when APD is doing a training it sometimes bring it down to a max of 15 cops responding if you have a senior supervising, fto & 3 deputies. 

[silton 4256]

1 hour ago, ben- said:

even if this is the case I can guarantee you they will pull the same amount of armour they have been if we were to be a all mk1 tier 4 and fatigues on. I mean you can believe what you want but two different people (one SAPD one retired, you can go figure who) have told Aegis they want to make it impossible to win regardless so who knows? I dont know why this thread is still going as its the same back and forth argument, civs will be biased to themselves and cops will be biased to themselves with no real structure to an argument from both sides. There needs to be an actual meeting about this and not some shitty ego forum thread

 

You repeated exactly what I said and complaining about cops saying they're gonna make it hard for you???? Then deflecting all arguments and blame by saying it's ego/bias. Really great work.

Better for people to voice their opinion here than not at all.

[NexIV 139]

7 hours ago, thomp62 said:

Hello, My name is Thompp. I am a Jr. APD Patrol Officer. I am currently writing this in school, in the middle of my classes. You may have already heard of me from the APD forums because of me complaining about the state of Federal Events and how it’s unfair towards the APD. However, after input from so many sides, including Sr. APD, other Jr. APD, and CIVs participating in the federal events, I decided to take a fresh look at the state of federal events, and that started with data collection. I took a month to pile up every federal event that I personally have participated in, and after looking at it all, as well as playing the federal events myself, I have come up with several conclusions and suggestions.

Before I begin, here are some disclaimers that I want everyone to know:
1. This is not meant to be a forum post about blaming people or factions. This is only a review of the state of Federal Events as seen by a Jr. APD member, and my input about what we can do to make it better for everybody.
2. Being as it is a somewhat biased collection of data (with only my participation being the reason for the data being in the spreadsheet), this is obviously not what it might look like to other people.
3. After arguing in the APD forums, I realize that we have many different opinions about federal events, as well as different experiences. So this is not meant to put down other people’s opinions, but rather give my own opinion and insight.
4. I have reflected and see that federal events are not only unfair for Jr. APD, but also for CIVs going against Sr. APD.
5. Special thanks to @ xsmitherz for his help in formatting the spreadsheet, and @ SPBojo for his insight into what the Civilian side looks like when fighting federal events, as well as many others for their strongly-written opinions.
6. Remember that we are all humans behind the screen. I genuinely want to see federal events changed to be more fair for both the APD and the CIVs participating in it. I want us to all have fun with federal events. It shouldn’t be a punishment to fight these federal events, but rather something we want to look forward to.
7. This might look like I'm yapping to most of you guys, but this is truly what I feel and what most Jr. APD feels about federal events.
8. In the end, this is all a game. If the game is frustrating, it’s completely okay to take a step back and relax.
9. Here's the spreadsheet for everyone to view https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b4mRgCor2VFw1QxEcVcvOyCe1W3PhPabq6VmRTlnt6w/edit?resourcekey#gid=1645404173

—---------------------------------------------------—---------------------------------------------------—--------------------------------------------------------------—---------------------------------------------------—----------------
 

When I was a deputy about 5 months ago, I had my first federal event and genuinely enjoyed it. Not only was it fair on both sides with nearly equal numbers of people, but also it wasn’t too cancerous for either side fighting and it wasn’t some deadbrain wave and die, wave and die type event. Recently however, I’ve noticed that this attitude towards federal events had changed. Not only for me, but for many other Jr. APD and Civs. Now, it wasn’t fun, but rather egregious and annoying to play. When Jr. APD watched as the popup for federal events showed, instead of being ecstatic, they would rather log off or groan. It was like watching a bunch of children after telling them “It’s bedtime”. For Civilians, I am sure this is the same feeling when Sr. APD begins mass-armor waves. 

Curiously, I wondered why such a change had occurred. Why were Jr. APD being punished for just playing the game? We don’t log in just to be tortured. We want to have fun. That is why I began talking to different sides and also collecting data, and looking at the APD handbook and server rules. I came to the conclusion that it was due to both sides overreacting, and seeking “revenge” upon each other, and Jr. APD being caught in the crossfire. Sr. APD began mass-pulling armor waves, Civs started running in large groups, which in turn made even more armor waves, which in turn forced Civs to use RPGs and Zafirs and other weaponry. Now, Civs are at the limit of how much they can keep pulling, whilst Sr. APD can still continue to use more weaponry. (As seen in recent blackwater events, where APD has started winning more than before). This ramp up in the level of weapons used has caused a disruption in the balance of power, and Jr. APD was forced to just sit there and endure the everlasting torture. 

So what exactly can we do, both as APD and as Civs, to ensure that the federal events we fight are fair, fun, and doesn’t leave anyone wanting to die in the end? As it stands, the only group that is unable to scale up to these increased levels of cancer are Jr. APD. This leaves many Jr. APD wondering what they are useful for in federal events, besides running in to die, baiting for Sr. APD, and trying to defuse the bomb. Of course, there are moments where Jr. APD shines, however these moments are few to none. I propose we add some rank in between Patrol Officer and Corporal, where they are able to use lethals in federal events, and ONLY federal events, and of course with very strict requirements. The only people who could obtain this rank are those with 100+ hours in APD, 20+ days Time in Grade, and are trusted within the APD community. 

For Sr. APD, I propose we add some rule changes that restricts how much armor is allowed per wave, depending on the amount of civs participating in these events. For example, 2 armored vehicles per every 4 civs. (ex. 8 armored vehicles when fighting 16 civs). Not only will this limit how much money Sr. APD will be forced to lose (as I know that Sr. APD doesn’t like pulling armor for this reason), but also it will decrease the amount of weapons used by Civs and reduce the amount of cancer occurring in the federal events at this moment, which in turn will reduce the cross-fire that Jr. APD has to deal with. I also propose we add rules regulating waves, and only having certain things after a certain amount of waves. (Ex. After the 3rd wave, armor can be pulled. After the 5th, lethals can be loaded for Jr APD.)

For proportionality, I propose we add new rules that regulate how many Civs / APD can participate in the federal events, depending on Civs / APD size. For example, we could have 1.5 APD per every 1 Civ. This could lead to the problem of Sr. APD forcing Jr. APD to leave so that they can replace them, but this could be fixed by enforcing a minimum amount of Jr. APD that must be in the federal event.

All in all, I believe that federal events should be fun to fight. It shouldn’t be some torture-fest or some punishment for Jr. APD. I genuinely enjoy playing APD and I want that feeling to be the same for everyone else, especially after federal events. There’s no point in playing a game that will just make you frustrated, after all. With Rexo in charge of the APD now, I believe that we can work together to make changes that benefit us all, and allow federal events to enter a new stage of strategy and excitement. 

TLDR: Federal events are cancerous for everyone, please come together to fix it.
 

THE REAL TLDR;
 

The author reflects on recent changes in the dynamics of federal events within a gaming community, particularly observing the plight of Junior APD members who seem to suffer disproportionately. They note an escalation in weaponry and tactics from both sides, resulting in a chaotic and imbalanced experience, especially for Junior APD members. To address this, they propose several solutions:

1. Introducing a new rank between Patrol Officer and Corporal for Junior APD members, allowing them to use lethals exclusively in federal events, provided they meet strict requirements.
2. Implementing restrictions on the number of armored vehicles allowed per wave for Senior APD, based on the number of participating civilians, to curb excessive force and reduce the chaos.
3. Introducing regulations on the timing and escalation of weaponry throughout federal events, ensuring a more controlled progression.
4. Implementing proportional participation rules to balance the number of civilians and APD members involved in events, preventing overwhelming force from either side.

The author emphasizes the need for federal events to be enjoyable and fair for all participants, expressing optimism about potential improvements under new leadership within the community.

[thompp 50]

Just now, NexIV said:

THE REAL TLDR;
 

The author reflects on recent changes in the dynamics of federal events within a gaming community, particularly observing the plight of Junior APD members who seem to suffer disproportionately. They note an escalation in weaponry and tactics from both sides, resulting in a chaotic and imbalanced experience, especially for Junior APD members. To address this, they propose several solutions:

1. Introducing a new rank between Patrol Officer and Corporal for Junior APD members, allowing them to use lethals exclusively in federal events, provided they meet strict requirements.
2. Implementing restrictions on the number of armored vehicles allowed per wave for Senior APD, based on the number of participating civilians, to curb excessive force and reduce the chaos.
3. Introducing regulations on the timing and escalation of weaponry throughout federal events, ensuring a more controlled progression.
4. Implementing proportional participation rules to balance the number of civilians and APD members involved in events, preventing overwhelming force from either side.

The author emphasizes the need for federal events to be enjoyable and fair for all participants, expressing optimism about potential improvements under new leadership within the community.

LMAOOOO thanks

[Bubbaloo - Reusable P Cup 3040]

There is no question feds are terrible for cops. But I understand that it needs to be fun for CIVs too. It’s very hard to balance this and there is a clear issue here that I’m not even sure will have a solution. 

I get muscle spasms and aids when I fight feds. 

I gave up on feds a long time ago. I literally walk around with my gun holstered and arrive on a quad bike. Keeps my sanity under control. 

 

 

[ben- 578]

24 minutes ago, silton said:

You repeated exactly what I said and complaining about cops saying they're gonna make it hard for you???? Then deflecting all arguments and blame by saying it's ego/bias. Really great work.

Better for people to voice their opinion here than not at all.

Theres a difference between making it hard and impossible, fighting 4 ghawks and 2 armed planes is really fun! I am not deflecting anything, its the same thing being repeated over and over by both sides. Christ, I already said to people in TS I said some retarded shit on this thread but w/e. But sure youre correct.

[Noble 1850]

2 hours ago, Brandyn said:

If anything needs to change its the location/respawn timer of gangbase. 

Yeah i say bring it back to right next to neo on the military hill! Goooooood times in woo!

[Element_ 451]

3 hours ago, SPBojo said:

Aegis usually does not bring a medic, we have only very recently started bringing medics as we are forced to. Its also pretty rare that we have 15 for the entire BW.

I've been taken hostage by Aegis for fed many times before you guys started yapping about channel stacks (that have no effect on the situation 99% of the time UNLESS its a brand new gang of brand new arma players, civs metagaming TS channels and whining is hella weird)

[monster 5668]

3 minutes ago, Noble said:

Yeah i say bring it back to right next to neo on the military hill! Goooooood times in woo!

ATing hq from gang base :))))

[SPBojo 6862]

2 minutes ago, Noble said:

Yeah i say bring it back to right next to neo on the military hill! Goooooood times in woo!

You should of heard how excited @ monster got when he thought the same 

2 minutes ago, Element_ said:

I've been taken hostage by Aegis for fed many times before you guys started yapping about channel stacks (that have no effect on the situation 99% of the time UNLESS its a brand new gang of brand new arma players)

There has always been a concern about proportionality / channel stacking, not until semi-recently has it become extremely unreasonable.

2 minutes ago, Element_ said:

civs metagaming TS channels and whining is hella weird

Huh?

[-dante- 5340]

4 hours ago, Noble said:

Would love to have shown peope what 2018 feds looked like with 15 hunters pushing 2nd wave. Good times!

2017 with GOAT’s first tenure, armored vehicles, vans surrounding the entire fed walls with cops jumping over walls like wild monkeys, and GOAT utilizing his chief feature of breaking the apd handbook when civs got creative lmao. Things used to be fucking nuts. We didn’t have nearly as many staff sapd then at least lol. 
 

as for the op, the issue here is that if the APD is having issues finding balance, then it’s sAPDs job to propose realistic changes. Also, should note that I don’t think the entire way things are fought should be changed based on ONE gang, but if that gang does majority of them, I guess I understand. Push sapd to propose things. Give them ideas. @ Rexo has been chief for 5 seconds. This is his time to hopefully make his mark, make proposals, fight for the faction etc. Things just have to be realistic. Cant just nerf civs because apd are on average trash and on average dont use any brain cells other than “push this gate”. 
 

 

[FalseBit 279]

4 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

dont use any brain cells other than “push this gate”

I feel personally attacked by this statement.

[Duece 76]

1 hour ago, NexIV said:

THE REAL TLDR;
 

The author reflects on recent changes in the dynamics of federal events within a gaming community, particularly observing the plight of Junior APD members who seem to suffer disproportionately. They note an escalation in weaponry and tactics from both sides, resulting in a chaotic and imbalanced experience, especially for Junior APD members. To address this, they propose several solutions:

1. Introducing a new rank between Patrol Officer and Corporal for Junior APD members, allowing them to use lethals exclusively in federal events, provided they meet strict requirements.
2. Implementing restrictions on the number of armored vehicles allowed per wave for Senior APD, based on the number of participating civilians, to curb excessive force and reduce the chaos.
3. Introducing regulations on the timing and escalation of weaponry throughout federal events, ensuring a more controlled progression.
4. Implementing proportional participation rules to balance the number of civilians and APD members involved in events, preventing overwhelming force from either side.

The author emphasizes the need for federal events to be enjoyable and fair for all participants, expressing optimism about potential improvements under new leadership within the community.

These are all great points brought forth. Nice writeup @ thomp62 .

I agree 100% with lethals for "senior" PO's at federal events only. I believe this would not only help win a few more events on its own but the main appeal IMO is that it will draw more talent to the APD ranks.

As is, many "shooters" don't even consider joining the APD or quit before achieving a rank in which they can be of much influence at federal events. Corp, rightfully so, is very difficult to achieve and if you want to have a life outside of the game and still play civ a decent amount it's not really a viable possibility atm. To these more competitive players I feel the possibility of getting lethals just based off hours and TIG will be seen as something they can realistically achieve and draw more talent to active duty.

This shouldn't be super easy to achieve but doable for the average player. I'd say like 150+hours on apd and 30 days TIG or something could be realistic but would need to see what % of PO's have those kind of hours. Can't have 90% of PO's having lethals but also if it's only 5% it won't make much of a difference. 20%-25% sounds like a good median. Either a new rank or just something like Federal Event Guards tags ontop of PO could work.

+1 to restricting armor #'s (within reason, hunters aren't very strong anyways) until certain gear i.e. rpgs/zafirs/granits etc. are seen/used as well. This would demotivate/remove the feeling of needing this gear by Civs. There is definitely a big variance in what individual seniors deem proportionate and even 1 bad experience/overpowering from apd for civs will force them to come back stronger next time around. More rules here will help both sides.

[Tman15tmb 1867]

59 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

Cant just nerf civs because apd are on average trash and on average dont use any brain cells other than “push this gate”. 
 

 

Just @ me next time.

[Luke123 114]

On an old server we had an escalation graph that would control when cops could escalate. It was quite detailed and would specify what conditions had to be met in a specific situation for a certain type of high end asset to be used. For example, it would say at a fed a ghost hawk could be used if there are 5 armoured vehicles, 1 armed vehicle, or an rpg.

This worked really well as it eliminated any discretion that cops could abuse to use disproportionately overpowered stuff. It also had the interesting effect of creating two kinds of feds. The first kind rebels would use all their best stuff and maybe trigger escalation. The second involved rebels self consciously limiting what they brought to stay under the escalation threshold. It meant that you didn't need to have access to the best gear to try a fed.

The key is not leaving any ambiguous standard for escalation that can be interpreted however somebody wants.

[knifemaster 151]

1 hour ago, Duece said:

+1 to restricting armor #'s (within reason, hunters aren't very strong anyways) until certain gear i.e. rpgs/zafirs/granits etc. are seen/used as well. This would demotivate/remove the feeling of needing this gear by Civs. There is definitely a big variance in what individual seniors deem proportionate and even 1 bad experience/overpowering from apd for civs will force them to come back stronger next time around. More rules here will help both sides.

There are standards in place to be proportionate, however the goal of the ADP is to stop the robberies no matter what the number are. There is currently 15 active APD members with access to armor, 3 of which can only use it at federal events ( with restrictions regarding proportionality). Majority of feds I have fought and I can tell you from my experience, if by 10 minutes we have not made any meaningful progress getting into the federal event I will begin pulling some armor. 

[JoeL 1303]

Too many words my BW brain rot can’t keep up