APD State of Affairs from an External View

Boovin · February 1

@ King @ ThatNerdyGuy idk then chiefs if they’ve locked that shit down to a close knit circle of idiots then maybe it’s time to start APD II

1 hour ago, CaloomClark said:

Some great SGT’s and FTO’s coming through currently, I am very confident in the future of SAPD. As for Winters, he is ALWAYS quick to respond with any questions, IA’s or general issues within the APD. While he may not be that active in game, he is extremely active in the background. As for cliques, unfortunately they will always be there. Those who play together will rise through the ranks together and if they don’t, then good candidates will end up being overlooked. Of course there is always room for improvement, but scapegoating winters and just going for his head will not achieve anything.

@ ThatNerdyGuy as for senior promotions, sevro I believe isn’t accepting SGT, if offered. Myself, smitherz and knife all are fairly new in the FTO role. I assume they are giving it a bit of time to see who is best fitted to the senior spot, or just letting us get a bit more experience before making any decisions.

Gluck Gluck Gluck, FTOs trying to fit the mould because they want to be sAPD is part of the problem. Quit sucking up to people you would laugh at IRL

Big Boss Fredo · February 1

Fredo for chief of police 2024

-dante- · February 1

3 hours ago, CaloomClark said:

Some great SGT’s and FTO’s coming through currently, I am very confident in the future of SAPD. As for Winters, he is ALWAYS quick to respond with any questions, IA’s or general issues within the APD. While he may not be that active in game, he is extremely active in the background. As for cliques, unfortunately they will always be there. Those who play together will rise through the ranks together and if they don’t, then good candidates will end up being overlooked. Of course there is always room for improvement, but scapegoating winters and just going for his head will not achieve anything.

@ ThatNerdyGuy as for senior promotions, sevro I believe isn’t accepting SGT, if offered. Myself, smitherz and knife all are fairly new in the FTO role. I assume they are giving it a bit of time to see who is best fitted to the senior spot, or just letting us get a bit more experience before making any decisions.

Bro tryna expedite his path to Sgt all in one post

Big Boss Fredo · February 1

@ ThatNerdyGuy cops be overreacting I only tased them twice each during that black water just to teabag, talk shit and they gave up 5 minutes into it. APD really are some sensitive ass bitches, Cry when there’s too many rebels but you don’t see us crying when the APD zergs 20 deep nowadays or the fact they roam with 2-3 ghawks daily.

Claysive · February 1

I didn’t read any of that, but fuck the APD.

Clashingtin · February 1

I will say I was fighting the bw on civ it was prob around 25 civs vs 8cops which from my pov I even thought was a little aids I understand why king didnt wanna fight the bw.

APD Officer(s) can be instructed by an active Staff Sergeant (FTO)/SAPD/Retired Chief not to respond to an active Federal Event and may instead conduct other APD duties.
If im not mistaken this rule is for if civs have 5 people doing a fed and there are 15cops on the active sgt+ may tell the other cops to not respond to make it fair and not just completely give up and give the civs a free federal event.

ThatNerdyGuy · February 1

2 hours ago, Hazardous said:

Acknowledging the post & letting it reel before I start picking at it . Also have to remember most of the seniors will not respond because the faction is hushed. You can freely take the long list of seniors that were recently “forcefully removed/retired” as the voice of majority of SAPD as they have no limitations.

That is the issue with all of this, no one should have to blink twice to let everyone else know that there is something wrong.

2 minutes ago, Clashingtin said:

I will say I was fighting the bw on civ it was prob around 25 civs vs 8cops which from my pov I even thought was a little aids I understand why king didnt wanna fight the bw.

APD Officer(s) can be instructed by an active Staff Sergeant (FTO)/SAPD/Retired Chief not to respond to an active Federal Event and may instead conduct other APD duties.
If im not mistaken this rule is for if civs have 5 people doing a fed and there are 15cops on the active sgt+ may tell the other cops to not respond to make it fair and not just completely give up and give the civs a free federal event.

The issue is that the rule does not state this nor does it imply this at all. I know what that means and so might others but if we look at the face value, what @ King had done wasn't against the rules. Nor should it have been a "you can either retire or be demoted to Corporal" sort of situation. Clearly those in the position to remove him were looking for a reason and they found their reason.

11 minutes ago, Big Boss Fredo said:

@ ThatNerdyGuy cops be overreacting I only tased them twice each during that black water just to teabag, talk shit and they gave up 5 minutes into it. APD really are some sensitive ass bitches, Cry when there’s too many rebels but you don’t see us crying when the APD zergs 20 deep nowadays or the fact they roam with 2-3 ghawks daily.

It can truly be seen on both sides, both complain when there is reason or maybe isn't reason to do so.

Lucien · February 1

1 minute ago, Clashingtin said:

I will say I was fighting the bw on civ it was prob around 25 civs vs 8cops which from my pov I even thought was a little aids I understand why king didnt wanna fight the bw.

APD Officer(s) can be instructed by an active Staff Sergeant (FTO)/SAPD/Retired Chief not to respond to an active Federal Event and may instead conduct other APD duties.
If im not mistaken this rule is for if civs have 5 people doing a fed and there are 15cops on the active sgt+ may tell the other cops to not respond to make it fair and not just completely give up and give the civs a free federal event.

Regardless of potential interpretation, the rule still says x may do y with no further stipulations. I am a strong believer in rules being enforced as they are written rather than interpreted, especially by something like this where all that needed to be done is add “to balance the event” to the end of that rule if that is the only way Winters wants that enforced.

Personally in my experience of playing cop on Arma in general I much rather Asylums method of the rules/handbooks being explicit on what is permitted and not permitted (or at least it was like that when I played), this benefits both faction members and civs as you don’t need to know all the unwritten rules to properly defend yourself in an IA or take tests, etc.

CaloomClark · February 1

21 minutes ago, -Shawn- said:

Bro tryna expedite his path to Sgt all in one post

and my SGT friends to Lt ffs

3 hours ago, Masonn said:

You're just waffling here tbh

Fuckwinters

nose

Lucien · February 1

1 minute ago, CaloomClark said:

and my SGT friends to Lt ffs

nose

Crazy me and @ Xlax dont see this level of dicksucking for you to get free granits I’m missing out…

CaloomClark · February 1

2 hours ago, Boovin said:

Gluck Gluck Gluck, FTOs trying to fit the mould because they want to be sAPD is part of the problem. Quit sucking up to people you would laugh at IRL

i am not near getting senior... and best believe i wouldn't get on forums to suck people off for it. tbh, you don't have a clue with what goes on within the APD and so i really do not think you should be splurting bollocks from your own hopeful assumptions

Just now, Lucien said:

Crazy me and @ Xlax dont see this level of dicksucking for you to get free granits I’m missing out…

i kinda want granits....

JDC · February 1

12 minutes ago, ThatNerdyGuy said:

Clearly those in the position to remove him were looking for a reason and they found their reason.

This right here ^

Just look at whos been removed and/or hasn't got promoted in sAPD.

Clashingtin · February 1

I have been friends with king for quite some time him being removed sucks but if you look at it from different POVS it was a pretty dumb call to not go.

I think its pretty common sense to respond to an active fed/bw or whatever the fed event is and not go out and check redzones or whatever he was doing. Giving civs a free bw with a bunch of high tier loot doesn't look good on him. If he was able to make that call as a sgt to not respond what other calls would he make in the future as a sAPD member.

He took his own risk and paid the price for it unfortunately it resulted in a demotion

bigSMOKE · February 1

42 minutes ago, Clashingtin said:

I have been friends with king for quite some time him being removed sucks but if you look at it from different POVS it was a pretty dumb call to not go.

I think its pretty common sense to respond to an active fed/bw or whatever the fed event is and not go out and check redzones or whatever he was doing. Giving civs a free bw with a bunch of high tier loot doesn't look good on him. If he was able to make that call as a sgt to not respond what other calls would he make in the future as a sAPD member.

He took his own risk and paid the price for it unfortunately it resulted in a demotion

I think everyone agrees it was a bad call in hindsight but because of a non fully clarified rule in the handbook that could easily be cleared up he took punishment for it. According to the handbook he was within APD rules to do it, however there may be further clarification that snr apd get that plebs don't but from a non snr perspective kinda weird.

Used to, cops ate shit during active fed events, so I agree they should still do it. But with a rule that seemingly allows them not to it should be clarified better.

edit: yeah nvm he wasn't just demoted for this

SheriffJohnBeard · February 1

31 minutes ago, ThatNerdyGuy said:

It can truly be seen on both sides, both complain when there is reason or maybe isn't reason to do so.

^^ the animosity of cops vs civs shouldn't be so deep

+ i think neutrality and some form of transparency when top-tier decisions are made would be beneficial (additions/removals of sAPD, rule updates/interpretations, vote results on proposed rule changes, etc.)

Millennium · February 1

12 hours ago, ThatNerdyGuy said:

"APD Officer(s) can be instructed by an active Staff Sergeant (FTO)/SAPD/Retired Chief not to respond to an active Federal Event and may instead conduct other APD duties."

I always understood this rule as "those people in those roles can tell other people not to aid in the federal event due to things like outnumbering, it's about to be over, etc." I never took it as the APD members themselves could tell themselves to stop participating in the active federal event.

I don't have access to roundtables or old roundtables so I can't tell you 100%.... but it was not intended for the person of said rank to decide for themselves to stop participating in feds. Whether or not they are aids... There are far WORSE situations that have previously occurred that are not even comparable on a scale to what supposedly occurred with King.

DB feds BW's back to back, Milking of APD officers (before neutralizing was a thing), etc. I remember Are We Lethals? milked a poor deputy for 14+ minutes by simply legging him and stopping him from moving forward with an ifrit (he stopped getting milked after Rabid told the guy to pull his plug and he did lmao).

The rule of how it is written is pretty retarded thinking about it. Currently with the way it is written a non-active Sr. APD member could join a fed channel and tell them to stop participating in the federal event. They wouldn't even need to be playing.

For quite some time now the top of the Sr. APD has gotten away with thinking the distancing of themselves is necessary and not impactful of the APD. They are very wrong in thinking that though. Why would the top of the APD (Chief, Dep Chief, & Captains), think it is OK for the Chief of Police to go over 300+ days without playing cop? When I would occasionally come around and bring up how many days it's been for him being inactive on cop, they gave excuses. "he has a job (like the rest of us)." "he does a lot of desk/paperwork". The majority of blacklists just get denied with a "wait till same date NEXT YEAR" and there really isn't a crazy amount of work that the Chief needs to do. He is the most responsive on roundtables because more than half of the Sr. APD were silenced by him on the roundtables and are told to "let Winters handle it". That is his own choice.

I mean there is something I heard of when he gets asked a question about a rule or something about the APD and he gives them an answer he considers that as time towards what his "minimum time requirements" should be. So say he had to make 4 hours in-game, he could do less because he answers people's questions.... This is in part due to Sgt's, LT's, etc. don't need to worry as much about minimum time requirements if they are active in doing tests.... but the Chief doesn't do tests besides Staff tests.

Ryan won't do anything to Winters on his own. Sr Staff won't do anything to Winters either. The only way they will step in is if the Sr. APD meets specific prerequisites as to why Winters should be removed. If those get met they will step in, but with how split the APD is it won't happen. Not to mention that Every Captain & Dep Chief will be on Winter's side as they always are and I have personally never seen any of them disagree with him. So you got 4 yes men at the top of the APD.

I would go on but I got to go to work now

Element_ · February 1

24 minutes ago, Clashingtin said:

I have been friends with king for quite some time him being removed sucks but if you look at it from different POVS it was a pretty dumb call to not go.

I think its pretty common sense to respond to an active fed/bw or whatever the fed event is and not go out and check redzones or whatever he was doing. Giving civs a free bw with a bunch of high tier loot doesn't look good on him. If he was able to make that call as a sgt to not respond what other calls would he make in the future as a sAPD member.

He took his own risk and paid the price for it unfortunately it resulted in a demotion

I've been APD for a hot min, done my fair share of being the punching bag of the server.

25 civs with BW gear, full auto 7.62, maybe sprinkle a couple of frits and stackable clothing in there vs 8 cops that is mostly Tier 2 vests and only one or two 7.62 users is literal cancer.

I would do the exact same in King's shoes, ya know, actually taking JrAPD into account and showing some basic leadership skills. SAPD should not be afraid to use handbook rules full stop. Then just to get them overruled by some guy that plays as a Corp 4 hours a week and doesn't interact with 99% of APD except in his own circle? Yeah no wonder even POs and deps have to be afraid of losing rank every time we fight a fed event. Everyone suddenly becomes an expert on the poorly written and vague ass book.

On to the 25 civs issue,

Im gonna use Anzus as an example as in my opinion they do majors well in keeping it balanced
8.1 - When civilians conduct a major crime, they must use the correct number of members involved in dispatch and you can not change the civilian numbers at the major crime after it has started. You also must use the correct choice of firearm, if you have 1 or more class 3s you must select class 3. You must text police via dispatch app what clothing you're wearing.
8.2 If civilians do not state in the dispatch that they want to negotiate during a major crime, 1km around the major crime marker becomes KOS between the civilians doing the major crime and the police responding to the major crime.
8.3 - You cannot initiate or interfere with a major crime if you are not involved. This includes police that are staging to respond to a major crime.
8.4 - Civilians cannot outnumber cops during a major crime, it must be a minimum of 1.5 LEOs to 1 civilian (1.5-1)
8.5 - Once shots are fired at the major crime you may not attend if you are not on the server/if you disconnect.
8.6 - You cannot shoot through windows, walls, or doors at major crime locations. (Also when major crimes are not active) You may shoot through the interior windows of the decagon major crime.
8.7 - You cannot start a major crime 30 minutes before and after a server restart. Majors can only be started 30 minutes after the last major crime has concluded.
8.8 - A major crime can be called off by the highest-ranking staff member online, in cooperation with the highest-ranking cop online, if they deem that adequate response numbers cannot be met (this is not the only reason, but the main one).
8.9 - Police must respond to a major crime in order to meet response numbers.

Notice how all the things that make fighting a fed on cop cancerous are rules? @ Headtaps knows these all too well, the only thing cops complain about over there are the weapons civs use in majors, that's literally it. You can say im comparing apples to oranges but I think if we had some of these or maybe one being 8.4, Feds wont go like "Hey a big group is up, log out if you dont want to fight the fed."

nicole · February 1

12 hours ago, King said:

God forbid you speak reason and truth around here @ ThatNerdyGuy ... they might come for your head.

Here are your statistics:

Officer	Total OIC	Current Week	Week 2	Week 3	Week 4	Week 5	Week 6	Corporals	POs	Deputies	Removals	Blacklists	Failed Corporals	Failed POs	Failed Dep	Notes	Total Tests
King	8	0	0	3	1	0	0	0	3	2	0	1	0	1	2	79	94

LIVE Rank	Name	Last Week	2 Weeks Ago	3 Weeks Ago	4 Weeks Ago	5 Weeks Ago	6 Weeks Ago	7 Weeks Ago
Sergeant	King	0.00	6.90	13.98	0.00	1.75	4.42	8.47

You had 400 days of time in grade with 8 officers in command (for those who don't know, OICs are given when you do an action to an officer, promote, demote, remove, or blacklist), 79 notes, 94 total tests given, would always miss meetings, and when you'd go in game, you'd sit in the back of an orca. When I was a Sergeant, I had 10x your OICs, would have 20–25 hour weeks, and never once missed a meeting all the way until I got Deputy Chief (by the way, I had a job and friends or family to spend time with and still managed). You should have been removed for inactivity, but we made the collective decision to issue you an inactivity warning and allow you to fix your OICs and time, and instead you told cops to not respond to a federal event because it was too hard. By the way, I did that once too; it was a little bit different, though. I did it to camp the bodies of people who just tased 3 cops and had the tasers on them and had other officers go and respond to the federal event, which they won, and I was forced to compensate every taser, and like, 8 million dollars, or I would've been demoted from Captain, so that is what set the precedent that the rule is only to make it proportinate for the civilians, not to just give up on the event because it was hard. You were always consistently trying to instigate a coup or start problems before bringing your issues to the Deputy Chiefs or the Chief. Whenever I had an issue at any rank, I would always go to Winters before I even became friends with him and complain to him and allow him to explain something to me, or even just let him know so he could investigate the issue and find the solution to the problem. I know Rexo, Caden, and Xlax did it, and I know Nate does it now. "OMG, I won't get promoted because I tried to coup Winters" is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. You won't get promoted because, rather than bringing issues to the one person who can actually solve them, you try to go around him to people who continue to try to solve them but never will because they aren't the Chief. That only shows him he can't trust you, and you can't trust him; it's commonsense. One final thing: Winters is always asking for you guys to bring up issues at the meeting or to him privately. He has every single Senior APD member on Snapchat.

I had the most OICs and most time for 7 months straight (with a job), so I know for a fact that it's possible you just didn't care about the faction; you just cared about starting drama and dividing the Senior APD.

-dante- · February 1

Some other points;

I don’t know @ King ‘s situation as a whole since he’s gotten SGT to know his history or his activity, but I’ve known him a long time and he’s a great dude to play and talk with. That being said, I do believe that what he did was wrong. Even when the events are literal cancer, I think it’s every active senior on the server’s responsibility to respond to federal events. If it’s cancer just tell some japd to go do something else and then just withstand it until the bomb blows at least. That being said, if he had a clean record and no activity issues prior, I don’t see how it had to be a forced retirement being there is an argument to be made with the wording. He was 100% wrong, but there was probably better ways to handle it if he had a clean record.

One thing I think is missing too is just a difference in mindsets on sAPD. Every single person in line to be a future successor of chief are all Staff. They all deserve their spots, but I think this sAPD is really missing a pure non staff APD guy who’s got strong opinions in favor of APD and fighting on the server to challenge the staff on the roster. The fact that NO sAPD are in here actually giving strong minded opinions one way or another is wild to me. They don’t have to agree with this post at all. But I can’t remember any former regime that I was around for that wouldn’t have at least half the seniors in here talking mad shit one way or another.

tldr; sAPD need a backbone and the non staff dudes need to start challenging with their own opinions. It helps the APD a lot when there’s debates to be had. Everyone pretending to agree is fake.

edit: shoutout to @ nicole for being the only one to finally come in and speak their mind on it.

nicole · February 1

Also, one more thing, @ King I literally heard you reading a note that I put on an IA to Patrol Officer when I joined the channel you were in, but we also once again let it slide to not further cause any issues. You should have been removed on the spot, but once again, Winters was nice to you and let you stay.

You didn't know we knew that though did you? It has always been Winters saving you idiots when you guys would fuck up or not do something right. You guys just don't know you're biting the hand that feeds you. Winters has always been way too nice and constantly let shit slide to try and keep things cool.

Lucien · February 1

@ Masonn for chief

johnny goose · February 1

12 minutes ago, nicole said:

so that is what set the precedent that the rule is only to make it proportinate for the civilians

LOL PROPORTINATE FEDS FOR CIVS? You mustve forgot to take ur meds this morning

-dante- · February 1

4 minutes ago, nicole said:

This is why it’s important for sAPD to give a shit about responding to these posts. Transparency and facts matter. All these things coupled together is a MUCH different perception than just the event situation in itself. With all of those facts, he would have likely been removed at a sooner date. Obviously King can still rebuttal against all of this, but OICs are the simple number facts about a Sgt’s desk duties. It’s pretty damning.

nman · February 1

If you're thinking about playing APD, apply for reserves and play your 47 minute minimum per month, its the better way to go.

katheeri · February 1

20 minutes ago, nicole said:

(by the way, I had a job and friends or family to spend time with and still managed).

Edited February 1 by katheeri

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