House Raiding Debate

[Richard 595]

6 minutes ago, sploding said:

Medics report illegal activity to us all the time and I can't recall the amount of medics who have directly led us to a drug bust we wouldn't have gotten without their help.

 

RnR is still dirty, but not as much as the APD.

Unless they are seeing a development at the federal reserve, they should not be reporting to APD.  Send me or any Senior the reports and it will be handled.  This has been a rule for quite some time now.

[Icy 127]

1 minute ago, RDyer216 said:

Unless they are seeing a development at the federal reserve, they should not be reporting to APD.  Send me or any Senior the reports and it will be handled.  This has been a rule for quite some time now.

emt: “i need apd help redzone!!”

apd: 

[SPBojo 6863]

28 minutes ago, sploding said:

RnR is still dirty, but not as much as the APD.

Imagine calling a faction that was straight up FORCED by the APD to be biased towards them dirty, NICE.

[KrispyK 22]

this rule honestly should be changed. should only be searchable if you interact with it store/pull. not just being inside. should only be able to break doors down if someones inside, not search

15 minutes ago, Bojo said:

Imagine calling a faction that was straight up FORCED by the APD to be biased towards them, NICE.

this this fuckign this. now we can be scat medics if we want, best god damn change that the server ever fucking made.

[ehKyler 17]

1 minute ago, KrispyK said:

this rule honestly should be changed. should only be searchable if you interact with it store/pull. not just being inside. should only be able to break doors down if someones inside, not search

exactly, and imagine not even being initiated...

[PoptartRex 3294]

1 hour ago, gaz said:

No, his job is to make civs a balanced and powerful faction. The biggest way to do that is further balance and nerf the APD.

The problem is that both sides are supposed to remain balanced and fight for a balance. However both have decided to go to the extremes and balance is now dependent on staff and the owner

[CIA JOSH 2895]

1 hour ago, RDyer216 said:

You’re joking right?

In my experience, IA reports have been useless.  I saw a PO get demoted once for I believe 3 days, and I truly believe it was only because he was a problem cop.  My understanding is that he had been removed before so it was easy action.  IA reports circumvent the server handbook too often.  I’m gonna stand with @Bojo on this one.

 

As a major reporter, I can assure you I have gotten plenty of people removed/demoted for things theyve done.

[InTenT 15]

2 hours ago, ehKyler said:

So yesterday I was chillin in DP 11, when a cop car was coming up from the distance, not code 3 or anything. I see that I have a 173k bounty and an illegal weapon so I run through through my house, in through the front door and out the back, keep in mind they weren't initiated on me, or said anything to me. I didn't store anything in my house, or take anything out I didn't even look in the trunk. All I did was run through my house. Next thing you know my house is being raided, doors broken down and I was like okay thats fine they wont find me there. THEN I GET A MESSAGE SAYING THEY ARE SEARCHING MY HOUSE, and they ended up seizing 8 mil worth of drugs.

I just think that the house raiding probable cause is kind of stupid and should be nerfed, for all they know I could have been at someone else's house with keys, or cops can just CAMP for hours at a house with a lot of drugs and just siezing everything after seeing someone come out the front door when they re-spawned, and the fact that I wasn't even in the house or initiated makes it 10x worse, and I was veryyy upset.

I think the rule should be changed if the cops visibly see someone accessing the house, or if they go in and come out with a different load out, or if the cops are initiated on you and you lock the doors. etc should be probable cause. However not being initiated and running THROUGH your house shouldn't be probable cause, because they shouldn't have the need to search the house if no one is in it.

Opinions? +1 or -1

100% +1 

1 hour ago, Bojo said:

The biggest worry civ's has is the APD.

AMEN

[Pledge 2292]

@ehKyler did you just run THROUGH the house? Or did you open and close (interact with) the doors or any other part of the house?

[Guest Hadi Mokdad]

3 minutes ago, Pledge said:

@ehKyler did you just run THROUGH the house? Or did you open and close (interact with) the doors or any other part of the house?

He mentioned yesterday on TS that he did in fact open the door which is interaction with the house. After that he ran outside from the other side. 

[Richard 595]

5 minutes ago, Hadi Mokdad said:

He mentioned yesterday on TS that he did in fact open the door which is interaction with the house. After that he ran outside from the other side. 

Opening a door itself shouldn’t be enough to search.  Nor should having a bounty because the player wasn’t ID’d.  And if he wasn’t engaged, why would it be searched?

Players can open all sorts of doors on the map.  APD COULD use these loop holes to mark locations of certain houses on a map for future reference.

Oh wait, I think this has already been started in a few DP’s such as DP22-D25

 

[Hoonter 232]

1 hour ago, RDyer216 said:

Unless they are seeing a development at the federal reserve, they should not be reporting to APD.  Send me or any Senior the reports and it will be handled.  This has been a rule for quite some time now.

You don't even know you're own rules imagine being a Senior RnR member maybe you should read you're own handbook before commenting on another factions...

[Richard 595]

16 minutes ago, Hoonter said:

You don't even know you're own rules imagine being a Senior RnR member maybe you should read you're own handbook before commenting on another factions...

Specifically?

[Hoonter 232]

25 minutes ago, RDyer216 said:

Specifically?

Well you said the only time medics should call APD is for feds which is wrong plenty of other situation s you could contact APD during

[Richard 595]

12 minutes ago, Hoonter said:

Well you said the only time medics should call APD is for feds which is wrong plenty of other situation s you could contact APD during

Let me clarify. The only time they should be reporting illegal activity, is if it is a developing federal event.  Yes, there are situations that communication is necessary.  I was referring to the idea of planting I believe someone said illegal items or evidence on vigis.

[Hoonter 232]

23 minutes ago, RDyer216 said:

Let me clarify. The only time they should be reporting illegal activity, is if it is a developing federal event.

That's not true read you're handbook 

[LULA 2022 - PT 13 487]

3 hours ago, RDyer216 said:

Unless they are seeing a development at the federal reserve, they should not be reporting to APD.  Send me or any Senior the reports and it will be handled.  This has been a rule for quite some time now.

Mama didn't raise no bitch

[Captain_ 207]

2 hours ago, RDyer216 said:

Opening a door itself shouldn’t be enough to search.  Nor should having a bounty because the player wasn’t ID’d.  And if he wasn’t engaged, why would it be searched?

Players can open all sorts of doors on the map.  APD COULD use these loop holes to mark locations of certain houses on a map for future reference.

Oh wait, I think this has already been started in a few DP’s such as DP22-D25

 

According to a guy that was a cop in my gang at the time at one point all of our houses in dp13 were labeled on the map with name. This is when we owned that shed and ran frog 24/7. During this time all of dp13 and kalitha were checked like red zones. Completely insane 

[LULA 2022 - PT 13 487]

3 hours ago, TheCmdrRex said:

The problem is that both sides are supposed to remain balanced and fight for a balance. However both have decided to go to the extremes and balance is now dependent on staff and the owner

NGL the APD is overpowered but the proposed nerfs wouldn't help since they're pretty misguided. Last week we had a back to back fed then BW and since no seniors came on we got our asses handed to us, on the BW an AT was raining rockets and a hurom finished off the survivors for close to 10 minutes straight. Dep to Cpl is okayish but were still not equipped rules and gear wise to take on most situations we'll face.

 

The main problem people are having with the APD right now is excessive searching/camping of houses, excessive uses of specialized gear by seniors and being on rebels and warzone too much. Most of the issues civs have with us are caused by an overpowered SAPD with no exterior oversight, the attitude of the chief and the newest wave of seniors shows this isn't changing and will get worse as the newer seniors progress and appoint SAPD members to a point where it'll be systemic in about 12-30 months.

 

The SAPD have made it clear they're not budging and plan to keep abusing their power and writing shitty rules unless someone stops them. While a big APD nerf to NLR or loadouts is stupid having a board of OS and the heads of the civ council with the power to step in when the APD gets too powerful or doesn't act properly might prevent these problems from happening as often or spiraling. In most places the police and administrators answer to civilians and governments, a bit more external oversight might be a good idea for everyone.

[Claysive 1479]

21 minutes ago, Hoonter said:

That's not true read you're handbook 

5. Medics shall not disclose the Name, Affiliation, or Bounty of patients to anyone who is not employed in the R&R, in any request for service.

   These details should only be passed during legitimate forms of RP or if the request is being made to facilitate a player report for misconduct. 

     5.1. Medics are only permitted to call the APD for Assistance when threats or direct hostile action has been taken against them.

          Medics may then relay pertinent details to the APD. Ex: General Location, Vehicles, Weapons, Number of Assailants, etc.

     5.2 EMT rank is the only rank authorized to call the APD for the sole purpose of an Escort into a red zone without threats or hostilities present.

          Paramedics(+) do not need to call APD for an Escort unless direct threats are exchanged prior to entering the red zone.

     5.3. Medics are authorized to report suspicious or illegal activity that is observed around the Federal Reserve, Altis Penitentiary, or Black Water Armory to the APD. 

     5.4. Once APD is actively assisting medics in a call for service, medics may notify the APD about pertinent details until the medic leaves, loses contact, or the incident is over.

 

No medic should be reporting any illegal activity to the APD other than suspicious activity around the fed events. The only other reason for them to contact APD is for assistance once hostile action has been taken towards them, or if an EMT needs an escort into an illegal area. That's it. Any medic reporting to APD illegal activity going on, and leading you to drug busts is violating the handbook and should be reported. 

[Riiken Tenkashie 32]

I agree that there needs to be many thing re-written in the sever rules and in the handbook...sooooooo many things are written extremely vague and need to be updated to be more specific about the circumstances its laying out...for instance the rule in this case says...

"Searching a house/gang shed is authorized when An APD member has a form of probable cause (bounty, illegal weapon, etc.) and witnesses a civilian interacting with, shooting out of, or taking refuge in a house/gang shed in any form. The Sergeant or higher has discretion on whether or not to conduct a search."

MANY things are wrong with the wording of this statement...for instance when is says "interacting" that could be interpreted as just walking up to a building, taping it with your body, and walking away...that's interacting...house gets searched...how about "taking refuge"...again, a very vague wording, and could mean just walking through the house...house gets searched...how about the fact that the wording doesnt even specify searching the house only if you have keys...so technically an officer could just follow a wanted criminal as he walks through every house in kavala and just walk behind him searching every house as they go...you probably laugh at that last one but tell me in the rules where is says you cant do that.

Hopefully I've made my point at this time...I could give many more examples that are present in the rules like these ones but we've only examined one line of hundreds in the book and im not going to spend my time playing lawyer for the server unless I'm payed 3 figures an hour to do it

ADMINS: go pay a lawyer for a couple hours of their time to re write the rules for you so they are dead specific and not open to interpretation any more

[Hoonter 232]

Just now, Claysive said:

 

 

 

     5.1. Medics are only permitted to call the APD for Assistance when threats or direct hostile action has been taken against them.

          Medics may then relay pertinent details to the APD. Ex: General Location, Vehicles, Weapons, Number of Assailants, etc.

     5.2 EMT rank is the only rank authorized to call the APD for the sole purpose of an Escort into a red zone without threats 

     

  

Thank you for showing @RDyer216 this part of the handbook

[Richard 595]

11 minutes ago, sploding said:

NGL the APD is overpowered but the proposed nerfs wouldn't help since they're pretty misguided. Last week we had a back to back fed then BW and since no seniors came on we got our asses handed to us, on the BW an AT was raining rockets and a hurom finished off the survivors for close to 10 minutes straight. Dep to Cpl is okayish but were still not equipped rules and gear wise to take on most situations we'll face.

 

The main problem people are having with the APD right now is excessive searching/camping of houses, excessive uses of specialized gear by seniors and being on rebels and warzone too much. Most of the issues civs have with us are caused by an overpowered SAPD with no exterior oversight, the attitude of the chief and the newest wave of seniors shows this isn't changing and will get worse as the newer seniors progress and appoint SAPD members to a point where it'll be systemic in about 12-30 months.

 

The SAPD have made it clear they're not budging and plan to keep abusing their power and writing shitty rules unless someone stops them. While a big APD nerf to NLR or loadouts is stupid having a board of OS and the heads of the civ council with the power to step in when the APD gets too powerful or doesn't act properly might prevent these problems from happening as often or spiraling. In most places the police and administrators answer to civilians and governments, a bit more external oversight might be a good idea for everyone.

Are u sure you’re a cop?  This is the first time I’ve seen a cop admit to any flaws.  Especially one that calls out the truth with current sAPD mentality and directions.

[Captain_ 207]

16 minutes ago, sploding said:

NGL the APD is overpowered but the proposed nerfs wouldn't help since they're pretty misguided. Last week we had a back to back fed then BW and since no seniors came on we got our asses handed to us, on the BW an AT was raining rockets and a hurom finished off the survivors for close to 10 minutes straight. Dep to Cpl is okayish but were still not equipped rules and gear wise to take on most situations we'll face.

 

The main problem people are having with the APD right now is excessive searching/camping of houses, excessive uses of specialized gear by seniors and being on rebels and warzone too much. Most of the issues civs have with us are caused by an overpowered SAPD with no exterior oversight, the attitude of the chief and the newest wave of seniors shows this isn't changing and will get worse as the newer seniors progress and appoint SAPD members to a point where it'll be systemic in about 12-30 months.

 

The SAPD have made it clear they're not budging and plan to keep abusing their power and writing shitty rules unless someone stops them. While a big APD nerf to NLR or loadouts is stupid having a board of OS and the heads of the civ council with the power to step in when the APD gets too powerful or doesn't act properly might prevent these problems from happening as often or spiraling. In most places the police and administrators answer to civilians and governments, a bit more external oversight might be a good idea for everyone.

This was very well said. +1 also considering you are a cop it good to see you fighting the good fight. 

[Claysive 1479]

1 hour ago, RDyer216 said:

Let me clarify. The only time they should be reporting illegal activity, is if it is a developing federal event.

 

45 minutes ago, Hoonter said:

That's not true read you're handbook 

It is true. What do you mean? I posted that section of the handbook to show you that it is. Calling the APD for assistance and reporting illegal activity are two different situations. Someone was saying that medics call APD all the time and lead them to drug busts. This goes against the handbook. A medic calling you and saying "hey, Joe is at coke pro" is not allowed. A medic calling you and saying "hey, i need assistance at coke pro, shots fired" is. You are telling him that he is wrong, when he's clearly right. The only time a medic should be reporting activity is when there is suspicious activity around the federal events, like he said.