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Civilian Representative

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Roundtable summary 2020-01-27


i win

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Remember these are upcoming changes and additions - some of these will take some time to implement. I added some reasoning/flavor text for each idea this time around, hopefully you can see what we were thinking.

Cartels

  • Add the ability to see the highest medic rank currently online @Unjo
    • It really sucks to not be able to tell if it's just EMT's online and you're dead in a redzone waiting for 15mins because they can't enter.
  • Add the ability to change group passwords from the group menu UI @thor
    • Re-creating a large group when you want to exclude/kick a player is very frustrating.

Scats

  • Add the Vermin to WPL as a cheaper, decent weapon for newer players. @Millennium
    • Price will be 30-40k.
  • Remove the gun requirement for unrestraining via the windows key menu @Hunter
    • You can already do this if you select your Lockpicks manually from the Y menu, this is just a QoL change.
  • Allow APD hatchbacks (non AHP) to be claimable by civilians @Mr Majestic
    • The APD can currently seize our APD vandal hatchbacks for no reason other than roleplay, so we'd like to provide a roleplay reason for this.
    • Any APD hatchback would have the APD vandal hatchback skin once claimed by the civilian.
    • When the APD seizes the APD vandal hatchback from a civilian, they would be claiming that vehicle (it would go into that officers garage and return to being a normal APD hatchback).
    • This is a fun, mini-game type interaction between civilians and the APD.
    • APD vandal hatchback would no longer be purchasable at the rebel shop and the only way you can get this skin would be through claiming.
  • Public Urination charge for roleplay purposes for when we can piss next update @Mr Majestic
    • Like a 2.5k charge.
    • Doesn't give probable cause, etc.

Runs

  • Move the salvage location in the Pygros Bay somewhere there isn't a rebel destroyer @ACursedMyth

Vigis

  • Vigilante rank storage option - Alts shouldn't feel like a requirement to play a role for fun @Mr Majestic
    • Currently the vigilante role is extremely limiting and severely punishes your play time if you want to switch between a Vigi and a Rebel unless you have an alt. It takes many tens of hours to reach a high vigilante rank, and if you ever give it up you start from nothing.
    • We're adding an option to "store/save" your current Vigilante rank/arrests in exchange for money, or for free if you don't mind being reduced by a whole vigilante tier.
      • This will cost 750k per vigilante level stored.
    • If the Vigilante is currently wanted they wouldn't be able to store their rank until they become innocent (stopping abusive vigilantes just yeeting past the APD).
    • Most high tier Vigilante players currently use an alt account just so they can switch between both play styles. This new option would provides both convenience and a money sink (incentive not to use this too often).
    • Example: You're tier 3 and want to store your arrests/tier/license because your gang is doing a bank and you want to help. You walk upto the Vigilante NPC and select "store license", you'll get a prompt telling you it will cost 2.25m to store tier 3 or you can store tier 2 for free. You pay and there you go, you can pick your license back up later when you're innocent again.
  • Vigilante tier gear tweaks - Vigilante takes too long to become fun and enjoyable with the current tiers @Mr Majestic
    • Tier 1, 0 arrests - PO7 (no change)
    • Tier 2, 25 arrests - Sting
    • Tier 3, 50 arrests - level 3 vest
    • Tier 4, 100 arrests - SPAR-16 (no change)
    • Tier 5, 200 arrests - SPAR-16s (no change)
    • The .45 ACP is hot garbage when compared to the PO7.
    • Getting to 50 arrests with the PO7 currently is frankly insane, Sting will make this feel like a better progression.
    • No money changes for each rank, that's staying the same.

Feds

  • Pharmas only able to be started if you're carrying a 5.56mm or higher calibre weapon @Jig
    • Allowing Dave the Rookbanger to spawn a vehicle into the hands of the APD was a bit too easy.
  • Lower the Pharma vehicle spawn time by 30seconds
    • With the new location the APD can sometimes respond a bit too quickly to the Pharma, this should allow more vehicles to get some distance before the chase begins.
  • Increase federal event gold spawn amounts, from 200 to 400
    • Higher amounts of gold will spawn based on number of APD online.
    • Weight of gold bar also decreased from 8 to 6.
  • Blackwater bomb timer reduced to 20minutes from 25minutes
    • We're testing this and just seeing what happens to the win rate. It can't really go down from 0% so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Bank money bags will no longer be able to stored inside ariel vehicles, the weight is increased to 6, and total spawned reduced to 75 per vault.
    • We had this huge discussion and both the APD and Civilians Council had different opinions on how to fix the bank. In the end we agreed, and the change was simple.
    • Now civilians can be chased out of the bank on the ground instead of them camping on the roof/leaving with Orcas, etc.

General

  • Allow speedbombs to be attached to helicopters @Hylos
    • Speedbombs are fun, yet another money sink and we get to see stuff go boom.

Staff Roundtable

  • Tased players will have a spangle animation and take damage while tased @Mako
    • Just an animation, you basically fall to the ground like you're dead, but you're not dead.
  • Add short barrel P90 to black market shop @NokiaStrong
  • Allow loading of vehicles into HEMTT transport / mohawk @Mako
    • Medics have this and it looks fun, so we want it too.

 

You can find the roster for the @Civilian Council here. As always you can find details on how to apply here:

 

34 Comments


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So the best idea of balancing the bank was to not change the bank at all but to make it so that they cant put money bags in an orca.... The problem was that cops cant get to the roof and when some of these gangs do bank they dont even need to store in their heli when they have 8 guys who all have bergens which would offer 960 storage. The bank is the perfect ambush, one road in, 3 angles to shoot from, tasing them wont do anything when their buddies cover the ladder, and not to mention its far from the nearest HQ. I don't even respond to the banks anymore because the best I can do, as a PO, is try and test my luck to get inside a building and the only way I'm gonna restrain someone is if they aren't covering the ladder and I can somehow manage to taze and restrain everyone on the roof before their buddies on the other 2 buildings gun me down. We need a way to get the guys on the roof, and hoping that a lethal loading officer can snipe them all is just not going to cut it. 

When 82% of the bombs (According to Zahzi)  blow at bank, which means that the APD only stopped 18% of bombs from blowing, the best way to stop the overpowered bank is not attempting to stop them from flying away in an Orca, its to rethink the design of the bank. Cops, especially PO and Deputy, need a chance in this fight. Give us a way to get on that damn roof.

Big gangs are doing bank now because of a few reasons, its easy, its fast, it requires less planning than a fed, there is less risk, and its easy AF to kill a bunch of cops. Why go to a fed when you can do a bank? Half the time cops don't even respond to it and even if they did there's nothing that they are gonna do about it. At the end of the day, we cannot ignore the conflict of interest. Civ's enjoy doing bank because its an easy way to make cash, and its fun as hell! Getting all those cops to just come down the road one by one like little bowling balls just asking to strike out in the face of your Mk 1. There is an underlying problem with this bank and its not going to go away with this change. 

I respect everyone's opinion so don't hate me for mine.

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5 minutes ago, Dicky said:

So the best idea of balancing the bank was to not change the bank at all but to make it so that they cant put money bags in an orca.... The problem was that cops cant get to the roof and when some of these gangs do bank they dont even need to store in their heli when they have 8 guys who all have bergens which would offer 960 storage. The bank is the perfect ambush, one road in, 3 angles to shoot from, tasing them wont do anything when their buddies cover the ladder, and not to mention its far from the nearest HQ. I don't even respond to the banks anymore because the best I can do, as a PO, is try and test my luck to get inside a building and the only way I'm gonna restrain someone is if they aren't covering the ladder and I can somehow manage to taze and restrain everyone on the roof before their buddies on the other 2 buildings gun me down. We need a way to get the guys on the roof, and hoping that a lethal loading officer can snipe them all is just not going to cut it. 

When 82% of the bombs (According to Zahzi)  blow at bank, which means that the APD only stopped 18% of bombs from blowing, the best way to stop the overpowered bank is not attempting to stop them from flying away in an Orca, its to rethink the design of the bank. Cops, especially PO and Deputy, need a chance in this fight. Give us a way to get on that damn roof.

Big gangs are doing bank now because of a few reasons, its easy, its fast, it requires less planning than a fed, there is less risk, and its easy AF to kill a bunch of cops. Why go to a fed when you can do a bank? Half the time cops don't even respond to it and even if they did there's nothing that they are gonna do about it. At the end of the day, we cannot ignore the conflict of interest. Civ's enjoy doing bank because its an easy way to make cash, and its fun as hell! Getting all those cops to just come down the road one by one like little bowling balls just asking to strike out in the face of your Mk 1. There is an underlying problem with this bank and its not going to go away with this change. 

I respect everyone's opinion so don't hate me for mine.

@Sandman

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14 minutes ago, Dicky said:

So the best idea of balancing the bank was to not change the bank at all but to make it so that they cant put money bags in an orca.... The problem was that cops cant get to the roof and when some of these gangs do bank they dont even need to store in their heli when they have 8 guys who all have bergens which would offer 960 storage. The bank is the perfect ambush, one road in, 3 angles to shoot from, tasing them wont do anything when their buddies cover the ladder, and not to mention its far from the nearest HQ. I don't even respond to the banks anymore because the best I can do, as a PO, is try and test my luck to get inside a building and the only way I'm gonna restrain someone is if they aren't covering the ladder and I can somehow manage to taze and restrain everyone on the roof before their buddies on the other 2 buildings gun me down. We need a way to get the guys on the roof, and hoping that a lethal loading officer can snipe them all is just not going to cut it. 

When 82% of the bombs (According to Zahzi)  blow at bank, which means that the APD only stopped 18% of bombs from blowing, the best way to stop the overpowered bank is not attempting to stop them from flying away in an Orca, its to rethink the design of the bank. Cops, especially PO and Deputy, need a chance in this fight. Give us a way to get on that damn roof.

Big gangs are doing bank now because of a few reasons, its easy, its fast, it requires less planning than a fed, there is less risk, and its easy AF to kill a bunch of cops. Why go to a fed when you can do a bank? Half the time cops don't even respond to it and even if they did there's nothing that they are gonna do about it. At the end of the day, we cannot ignore the conflict of interest. Civ's enjoy doing bank because its an easy way to make cash, and its fun as hell! Getting all those cops to just come down the road one by one like little bowling balls just asking to strike out in the face of your Mk 1. There is an underlying problem with this bank and its not going to go away with this change. 

I respect everyone's opinion so don't hate me for mine.

Mad cuz bad, lol jk i verymuch agree that bank is op. My gang (Obv) have over a 90 percent win rate of 3 vault banks that we do where we do all 3 vaults in a row. Currently the only way cops can beat us is with a ghawk and even thats not definitly gonna win it. Personally i think i very big change would be to move PD closer and maybe have a map waypoint showing which bank is being robbed so cops actually know which one to go after. Definitly needs more work than what has been said.

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44 minutes ago, Dicky said:

When 82% of the bombs (According to Zahzi)  blow at bank, which means that the APD only stopped 18% of bombs from blowing, the best way to stop the overpowered bank is not attempting to stop them from flying away in an Orca, its to rethink the design of the bank. Cops, especially PO and Deputy, need a chance in this fight. Give us a way to get on that damn roof.

There is an important stat you're missing, the percentage of money bags that are actually sold, it's currently 59%. The idea is with this change the money bags are going to need to be driven out, think of it like a really expensive pharma at that point. The APD, of all ranks, will be able to engage and deal with the civilians in the normal way on the ground. This doesn't mean we wont make further changes later on, but right now we're going to test this out and see what happens.

There are no waves, so you can sit back and wait if you don't want to feed the meat grinder, that's entirely upto you.

31 minutes ago, Monks said:

Personally i think i very big change would be to move PD closer and maybe have a map waypoint showing which bank is being robbed so cops actually know which one to go after.

We suggested this too, and we couldn't come to an agreement so this change is what we came up with instead. I believe we're going to show which vault is being robbed anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Mr Majestic said:

There is an important stat you're missing, the percentage of money bags that are actually sold, it's currently 59%. The idea is with this change the money bags are going to need to be driven out, think of it like a really expensive pharma at that point. The APD, of all ranks, will be able to engage and deal with the civilians in the normal way on the ground. This doesn't mean we wont make further changes later on, but right now we're going to test this out and see what happens.

 

I understand what you’re saying but the lower % of money bags sold isn’t a fair representation of the success rate of a bank. There are other factors like money bags stored in houses/gang sheds, glitches, false alarms, blowing up on the way to a drug dealer, anything really. Like I said earlier, what’s keeping them from just filling each of their inventories up with money bags and leaving in an orca. You don’t need to drive out and if you can’t fit it all in your Y then make 2 trips, it’s so easy to hold down the bank that it would be a non issue to have 2 people fly to and from a house or gang shed and store the bags and come back. In fact, they already do this often in between vaults. 
 

But let’s say for some reason they take the ground unit route. Unlike like a pharma, we wont get updates on their location and being so far from an HQ would make it another non issue to get out of there easily. 
 

Ive already heard multiple cops say that they will be boycotting the bank to force change if there is not a reasonable update. Its already happening and it only gets worse every time 12 man M or N gang does a bank rather than a fed. 

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6 minutes ago, Dicky said:

Like I said earlier, what’s keeping them from just filling each of their inventories up with money bags and leaving in an orca.

You're not putting 300 money bags in your pockets man, they weigh quite a lot.

Here's the thing with money bags, they get sold eventually, these stats are from the entire month. I'm pretty confident they're not being stored for multiple months.

If it's still a problem and the bags being sold is still too much, we're going to look at it again. This isn't a one and done type thing. Remember civilians are winning exactly one event right now, the bank. I get it's not ideal for you, but try being a civilian trying to do a BW or a fed right now. I bet they feel the same way when they see 18 cops login vs 8 dudes, I know I do.

Lets let it play out a little bit, if more major changes need to happen I can assure you we'll hit it again. We're after balance for everyone, just because we represent civilians doesn't mean we want to walk all over the APD, a lot of us are cops too.

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In my opinion they need to add a cop limit to how many can attend feds and BWs. So maybe like 12 can be attending a fed at once and 16 can attend BW at once. But i've been countered about this saying higherups will just make deputys and PO's leave so they can attend it. So if you wanted to follow up on that make sure its first dibs gets to attend.

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15 minutes ago, Monks said:

In my opinion they need to add a cop limit to how many can attend feds and BWs. So maybe like 12 can be attending a fed at once and 16 can attend BW at once. But i've been countered about this saying higherups will just make deputys and PO's leave so they can attend it. So if you wanted to follow up on that make sure its first dibs gets to attend.

sweet, that means less lethals get on if were lucky

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1 minute ago, d a k o t a said:

sweet, that means less lethals get on if were lucky

Yeah especially because lethals are the only thing cops ever fucking think about nowadays. Literally highersups will just tell me to go in and die 2x so they can load lethals then i dont even get money for the lethals. So it sucks for cops lower than corp and civs.

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@Dicky check out the extra adjustments we just made, we'll see what happens after this I guess.

33 minutes ago, Monks said:

In my opinion they need to add a cop limit to how many can attend feds and BWs. So maybe like 12 can be attending a fed at once and 16 can attend BW at once. But i've been countered about this saying higherups will just make deputys and PO's leave so they can attend it. So if you wanted to follow up on that make sure its first dibs gets to attend.

Yeah unfortunately all the civs will do then is bring more than they have. This already happens a lot of the time and we shouldn't have to balance things with numbers like that.

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19 minutes ago, SystemChips said:

Instead of making cops want to do banks yall just made civs not want to do them either LUL. Great moves boys keep the updates coming. At least should have done @Mr Majestic idea and give them a closer spawn.

This was a sticking point for the APD, sadly no matter what arguments we used a closer spawn wasn't going to be "allowed" by them. I think the bank encouraged larger gangs too much, the income obtainable was far too close in value to a fed while also being quite easy. Now hopefully the 15 man gangs spamming banks will take another look at feds. 

There are still unique ways civs can complete banks, we can't balance for them all but certainly the quickly leaving in orcas with very little risk is curtailed. 

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Allow APD hatchbacks (non AHP) to be claimable by civilians @Mr Majestic
doesthis go for just hatchbacks or all apd vehicles such as orcas and hawks or suv

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Just now, Metro said:

Allow APD hatchbacks (non AHP) to be claimable by civilians @Mr Majestic
doesthis go for just hatchbacks or all apd vehicles such as orcas and hawks or suv

Just Hatchbacks without the AHP skin.

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35 minutes ago, Mr Majestic said:

This was a sticking point for the APD, sadly no matter what arguments we used a closer spawn wasn't going to be "allowed" by them. I think the bank encouraged larger gangs too much, the income obtainable was far too close in value to a fed while also being quite easy. Now hopefully the 15 man gangs spamming banks will take another look at feds. 

There are still unique ways civs can complete banks, we can't balance for them all but certainly the quickly leaving in orcas with very little risk is curtailed. 

The profit from banks is a part of why we do it but the main thing is the easiness factor. (Aka you could make banks give 500k and we would still do them) Being able to sit on an office and spray cars is very easy to do even if you add a staircase on the side of office buildings for cops to come up. Solution? Put an office building in fed... Nah jk but honestly there is no height advantage you can get in fed, and that is the key to civs winning fights.

Edited by Monks
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13 minutes ago, Metro said:

can this be done for orcas and hawks aswell?

I mean... it could, but some of the sAPD might have a heart attack if I suggest this.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Majestic said:

I mean... it could, but some of the sAPD might have a heart attack if I suggest this.

Yep anything to keep their precious ghawks. Maybe they could be more careful with them instead of wipping them out everytime they cant win a fight? Because i'm a cop and sAPD stealing all our money with lethals is bad enough, then they pull a ghawk and we just get to sit in the back watching the gunners get kills :(

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While I think the bank is unplayable right now, I do agree that civs don't do(or win) major federal events other than Jail right now. I'm quite interested in the stats from "fed season" when there were feds going on every day @Mr Majestic? I may be wrong but since fed season there haven't been any major(or minor) changes to any federal event. I feel as though the barrier to entry to pull off a successful fed at the moment is very high which is weird since rich players don't need to do feds and poor players(and low skill players) cant. Nothing persuades people to do something more than money or a higher drop chances.

16 minutes ago, Monks said:

stealing all our money with lethals is bad enough

I'm just saying, most times(but not all) lethal's being deployed is a sign that the APD is loosing the fight and while i agree it sucks that lethal splitting was removed(coming from someone with lethals) it also sucks loosing fights.

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14 minutes ago, ShoTime said:

I'm quite interested in the stats from "fed season" when there were feds going on every day @Mr Majestic?

For the first DB fed season we had a win rate of 85% overall I think, with a win streak in the mid 40s or something. I know this stat sounds insane, but remember we were occasionally 35 players deep, had Ghosthawks crusing around, AT offroads blasting, RPGs blasting, titans blasting and we were using all the BW gear we got at the events. There were points where I died with a Zafir and didn't even care because I'd get one within two BWs and would have it for the next 10.

The BWs and Feds aren't easy, far from it, but we encourage stacking on both sides and it sucks for everyone.

19 minutes ago, ShoTime said:

I'm just saying, most times(but not all) lethal's being deployed is a sign that the APD is loosing the fight and while i agree it sucks that lethal splitting was removed(coming from someone with lethals) it also sucks loosing fights.

Yeah I'm not buying the lethals deployed as a sign of APD losing a fight. I lost track of how many times I was told to "just die" when corporals wanted to get lethals going second wave.

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11 hours ago, Mr Majestic said:

@Dicky check out the extra adjustments we just made, we'll see what happens after this I guess.

Good, its step in the right direction increasing weight and making it spawn less money bags so yea I agree let’s see what happens. At the end of the day it doesn’t address the underlying problematic “ambush” design in itself and how hard it is for us to get up on the roof. I guess for the PO’s and deputy’s who can’t do much the best thing for us to do now is wait for them to leave on the ground and hope that we don’t lose them. Also, couldn’t they sling a box truck filled with the money bags? Just a thought. Still not much Jr APD can do

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1 hour ago, Mr Majestic said:

For the first DB fed season we had a win rate of 85% overall I think, with a win streak in the mid 40s or something. I know this stat sounds insane, but remember we were occasionally 35 players deep, had Ghosthawks crusing around, AT offroads blasting, RPGs blasting, titans blasting and we were using all the BW gear we got at the events. There were points where I died with a Zafir and didn't even care because I'd get one within two BWs and would have it for the next 10.

The BWs and Feds aren't easy, far from it, but we encourage stacking on both sides and it sucks for everyone.

My biggest part of my earlier statement is that its not worthwhile to do fed for the current amount of money dropped vs total money you risk so increasing the money slightly might be the way to buff its play stats. 

1 hour ago, Mr Majestic said:

Yeah I'm not buying the lethals deployed as a sign of APD losing a fight. I lost track of how many times I was told to "just die" when corporals wanted to get lethals going second wave.

To be fair though, how often do you auctually "just die?" Most people still try to get a taze off then die or taze one and then try to restrain and die(All situational of course). 

One time on civ I had a PO and a dep wave into my gang of 7+ people 13 times(not exaggerated). And while them bringing 5 more PO's could of made it more dangerous, 1 lethal makes it wayyyyyy more risky to stay. 

tldr, lethals win fights.

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